Paul warned Timothy, “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,” (2 Ti 4:3). Of course such misleading teaching has been occurring ever since Paul’s day but the Universalist rhetoric from Rome is becoming astounding. Pope Frank is doing back flips for the approval of the world albeit this says more about Frank than then world (Jn 15:19).
That’s right, Pope Frank is at it again… telling atheists they get a free pass to heaven without accepting the Gospel that is. Of course, this is not the first time as he said it back in May (here and here) but the Vatican was quick to post a reply that, “no atheists surely do go to hell” here. Appaently the so-called infallible vicar begs to differ and has written a letter to the editor of the Italian newspaper La Repubblica indicating his opinion that atheists who obey their conscience merit God’s favor and apparently are so justified to salvation.
A good Bible dictionary defines sin as “the failure or refusal of human beings to live the life intended for them by God their creator.”[1] However, Pope Frank does not understand the basic concept of sin and allows that atheists who obey their conscience (no matter how seared) are justified by their good works. Pope Frank writes:
First of all, you ask me if the God of Christians forgives one who doesn’t believe and doesn’t seek the faith. Premise that – and it’s the fundamental thing – the mercy of God has no limits if one turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart; the question for one who doesn’t believe in God lies in obeying one’s conscience. Sin, also for those who don’t have faith, exists when one goes against one’s conscience. To listen to and to obey it means, in fact, to decide in face of what is perceived as good or evil. And on this decision pivots the goodness or malice of our action.[2]
Apparently the ψευδοπροφήτης wants us to believe the issue for those who do not believe in God is to merely obey their conscience. Not so… God demands they repent of their unbelief. While God certainly wants us to behave in morally virtuous ways, good actions are not what merits God’s ultimate approval. In justification, God imputes the righteousness of Christ to the believer, which cancels God’s judgment on the believer. A truly biblical Christian theology leads to the conclusion expressed by Baptist theologian Dr. Millard Erickson:
Justification is a forensic act imputing the righteousness of Christ to the believer; it is not an actual infusing of holiness into the individual. It is a matter of declaring the person righteous, as a judge does in acquitting the accused. It is not a matter of making the person righteous or altering his or her actual spiritual condition.[3]
So it follows that no one earns their salvation. Justification is by faith alone (Rom3:28). An idea that is expounded on and clarified in Ephesians:
“But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.(Eph 2:4–9)
While Frank is correct that disobeying one’s conscience constitutes sin (1 Cor 8:28-29), he misses the mark by a wide margin. Scripture is clear that “everything that does not come from faith is sin” (Rom 14:23). Unbelief is sin. “And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him” (Heb 11:6). Jesus taught that the mile-wide road advocated by Pope Frank amounts to a false Gospel:
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Mt 7:13–14).
The terms “few” and “narrow” seem to escape the pontiff. He is indeed a false prophet of the worst sort. He is pied piper to perdition encouraging the atheist in his rebellious suppression of the truth (Rom 1:18). This is exactly the sort of false teaching we expect from the one with “horns like a lamb, who speaks like a dragon.” (Re 13:11)
[1] Allen C. Myers, The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1987), 951.
[2] “Pope Francis’ Letter to the Founder of “La Repubblica” Italian Newspaper” Vatican City, September 11, 2013 accessed September 12, 2013, http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/pope-francis-letter-to-the-founder-of-la-repubblica-italian-newspaper?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+zenit%2Fenglish+%28ZENIT+English%29
[3]Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology., 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1998), 969.
About Cris Putnam
this is correct this man is using obfuscated language to confuse people. When someone does this it has been called double talk. saying one thing and meaning another or just denying what you said because you can come up with lots of explanation’s we see this we what was called spin doctors or pR men. the vatican is the master of this kind of thing but now the language is quite clear, to keep the traditionalists happy his apologists will use spin but its all out in the open now , hell for leather changes are coming and coming very very quickly. today they are talking about atheists go to heaven, yesterday it was who am i to judge homosexuals(in the vatican)tomorrow it will be to let priests marry after all if he isn’t to judge homosexuals then celibacy is next. and whatever else takes their fancy.pedophelia possibly.who knows?
This is the language of Babel’s restoration, the new unification of old!
Its even bigger than that, I believe. What we are seeing is the Pope using an approach and the language of ‘tolerance’. Not the biblical tolerance, where we are living in the world, but not of the world. The kind which calls us to be salty and plant the seeds of the gospel through our testimony. No, this tolerance is of satan and will be used as a weapon to isolate disciples of Christ from lukewarm secularists. This new kind of tolerance should be could inclusiveness, where you find some point of commonality so that no one is excluded. Ecumenicalism on steroids.
What we are seeing on display as we speak in the middle east, through the magic of instant internet uploading and access, is the result of the most extreme form of intolerance. It is truly grisly and horrific. This reveals the horrors that result from a religion that believes narrow is the gate to heaven. Islam, an extremist view that believes only those that submit to Islam are going to heaven and all other infidels are executed.
As Cris’s blog post reminds us that true disciples of Jesus Christ ALSO believe that narrow is the gate. Some might even call us intolerant. Get ready for a heavy dose of guilt by association.
There will come a point where intolerance will no longer be tolerated. And when that happens, disciples of Jesus Christ will find themselves in a very lonely place. And the greatest perpetrators of our ‘excommunications’ will come at the hands of christians.
They will say, “If you don’t agree with what the world believes to be good, then you MUST be evil.”
(We are not merely tolerated by God, rather, we are the object of his highest favour)
That is the concept of GRACE something that the popes know nothing of.
During the dark ages when many ‘Babylonian doctrines’ were introduced within the christian realm, millions were put to death who would not tolerate them.
Bingo, Jaz. I can foresee a future where this happens again. The result will be a Christian (and any other ‘radical’ who won’t capitulate) holocaust of epic proportions.
This is one reason I am constantly pushing back against pretrib. What Christian wouldn’t rage against God if they stood in a concentration camp and believed they should have been raptured.
Rev. 2-10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.
“Then an herald cried out, to you it is commanded, o people, nations and languages… ye fall down and worship the golden image…. and who so falleth not down to worship the image shall be cast into the midst of burning fiery furnace” Dan3:4-6
“And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him and causes the earth and all that dwelleth therein to worship the first beast…
And causes as many as would not worship the Image of the beast should be killed” Rev13:12,15
Thank you, Cris, well said.
Do you see this as a move from the Catholic doctrine of church centered salvation to New Age self salvation or inclusivism?
The pope should be more concerned about the millions who are hellbound and should write as such.
This pope gives no warning of hell to no one.
To be cast into everlasting Fire Mat18:8
To be cast into hell Fire Mat18:9
Depart from me you accursed, into everlasting Fire Mat25:41
Shall go away into everlasting punishment Mat25:46
That all who love not the truth should be damned 2Thes2:12
The pope should consider investigating the reality of Hell.
The pope needs to repent. But alas, 2 Peter 2 warns what will become of false teachers.
hopeful_watcher said:
09/13/2013 at 6:51 pm
“I can foresee a future where this happens again. The result will be a Christian (and any other ‘radical’ who won’t capitulate) holocaust of epic proportions.
This is one reason I am constantly pushing back against pretrib. What Christian wouldn’t rage against God if they stood in a concentration camp and believed they should have been raptured.” (Bold, mine.)
Well, I have more confidence in the “keeping power” of God than that. A real Christian–one sealed, indwelt by the real Holy Spirit (the Holy Spirit who is a Person), would, upon finding himself in a “concentration camp”, do what real Christians have done in the past: Seek the Lord and rely on His strength.
It looks to me like the “pretrib” you’re so zealously “pushing back against” is a complete distortion of the pre-trib doctrine. No pre-trib scholar I know of discounts the possibility that the Church–even in the U.S.–could very well experience severe persecution before the Rapture occurs and the 70th Seven of Daniel begins. (In Muslim countries, they already are.) All the more reason to “comfort one another with these words” (1 Thess. 4:18).
Hey Cris, ever notice how it’s anti-pre-tribbers that derail your threads with unrelated subjects like the pre-trib Rapture?
Don’t blame me, I didn’t start this!!
But, to help get this thread back on topic, I fully agree with the notion that the current Pope could well turn out to be the false prophet of Revelation. He sure is pursuing the part, isn’t he?
Before the war of Armageddon, before “that great and notable Day of the Lord come” Acts2:20
The elect church will again go through a time of great Tribulation.
Once again satan will renew the enmity with the seed of the woman; This time it takes place within Satan’s own jurisdiction of [Ecumenical Babylon] over which he has complete control. The beast up from The ecumenical Sea of Babylon restored.
“And he (the Two Horned false prophet) had power to give life unto the image of the Beast, that the image should both speak, and cause that ‘as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed” Rev13:15
Satan has seen to it that little is known about the time immediately before the ‘battle of Armageddon’.
Nothing is preached about this coming persecution of the church to be endured before satan brings about the horror of Nuclear War.
He has blinded the leaders (Pharisee’s) of the people By the (((pri-Trib Lie))) and they cannot warn the churches of the dangers to come.
Be Warned Today my Friends; You will have to endure unto Death Before that great and terrible Day of the Lord when Jesus is revealed in flaming fire with his mighty angels 2Thes1:7
Thanks, Jaz, for illustrating my point about anti-pre-trib “thread deflectors”.
Chuckles, back off. I mentioned my stance on pretrib to bolster my point on the danger false teaching, which the blog is about. I wrote two sentences and you respond with an entire comment and you say I am the one changing the subject. Nice try. Your attempt to isolate those you don’t agree with isn’t working.
hopeful_watcher said:
“I mentioned my stance on pretrib to bolster my point on the danger false teaching, which the blog is about.”
Yes, and the alleged “false teaching” you brought up just happens to be your distorted idea of pretribulationism. How convenient. I don’t mind you disagreeing with pretribulationism, but at least get it right and disagree with the real deal.
“I wrote two sentences and you respond with an entire comment and you say I am the one changing the subject.”
You did change the subject, but in a veiled fashion which supposedly allows you to claim you didn’t. “Nice try”, indeed.
“Your attempt to isolate those you don’t agree with isn’t working.”
A false accusation. Nobody’s trying to “isolate” you. Just because I don’t swallow your opinions, you say “back off”? Do you say that to everybody who disagrees with you?
I don’t know what planet you are living on, but the majority of those who believe in pretrib absolutely believe they won’t have to endure suffering and the ones who do believe that is possible do not correct those who don’t think that is possible.
I will quote a popular internet pastor from a sermon a couple of months ago, JD Fargo. “If you believe in and call upon the name of The Lord, you too can be saved from the horrors of tribulation”.
Changing the gospel of Jesus to the gospel of petrib! As Paul says, may he be cursed.
hopeful_watcher said:
“the majority of those who believe in pretrib absolutely believe they won’t have to endure suffering”
Absolute fabricated nonsense. Have you polled the “majority” of pretribbers? No, I didn’t think so. There’s no way you could know what the majority of pretribbers think (although a few might think what you claim) since you don’t seem to know what pretribulationism actually teaches.
“the ones who do believe that is possible do not correct those who don’t think that is possible.”
More fabricated nonsense. Of the several well-known pre-trib scholars I have read–such as Walvoord, Ice, Newell and others–every one of them acknowledges the certainty of suffering tribulation as a Christian. What they point out is the distinction that exists between tribulation in general–which all believers have and will suffer in this life to some degree–as opposed to the specific time of tribulation properly known as Daniel’s 70th Week. I’ve never seen an anti-pretrib argument that did not fail to make that proper distinction, demonstrating the superficiality and non-cogency of anti-pretrib arguments on this point. The 70th Week “tribulation” (actually, the very time of it) is what the Church is promised deliverance from, not general tribulation during the Church age.
But , so as to avoid being disruptive, let’s get back to this thread’s subject: Pope Francis and his ecumenism. You mentioned that your post of 09/13/2013 at 6:51 pm was about “false teaching”, not pretribulationism. Ok, let’s talk about some real false teaching…
There’s a type of false teaching going around Christendom, which the Pope obviously isn’t too bothered by. Can you guess what it is? Here’s a hint: In the article referenced at the top of this thread the Pope mentions atheists, and how he thinks they’ll go to Heaven as atheists as long as they “sincerely obey their consciences”. In earlier messages, the Pope has included Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, in fact all religions under the same “sincerity of conscience” umbrella. If I’m not mistaken, you find that objectionable, as well you should. Very good!
But, here’s a major false teaching shared by all those contradictory religions and non-religions:
They are all…….. (wait for it)…
ANTI-TRINITARIAN!
Now, I find the fact that you place so much importance on pretribulationism as a supposedly “false teaching”, even an issue of salvation (which it is not), to be quite ironic, since you have no problem at all trashing the biblical doctrine of the Trinity, as you have in other threads on this blog dealing with the subject of the Holy Spirit.
See the irony? You lament “Changing the gospel of Jesus to the gospel of petrib”, claiming that it will cause true Christians to “curse God”, when you yourself believe in a “holy spirit” which is not a person, but is a… what–a manifestation, an aspect an “it”, a non-person!
Don’t you see it? You’re worshiping a false god, something you can “understand”, because the Trinity just doesn’t make sense to you. You disregard what the Bible actually says about the Person of the Holy Spirit, hiding behind ridiculous (and solidly refuted) sophistry about personal pronouns used to refer to the Holy Spirit in Scripture. “Well… well, hey now! Words like ‘he’, ‘his’, aren’t always personal, so jus’ cuz’ the Holy Spirit thinks, speaks, grieves, commands, indwells, etc–etc, all that don’t mean nothin’! Nuh-uh!!”
The degree of irony in all that would have me posting “ROFLOL!” if it wasn’t so tragic. As it is, I’m concerned for you. I’m not laughing. (You can bet the devil is laughing himself silly at your reasoning.)
The fact is, you are in danger, hopeful_watcher.
Very. Great. Danger.
You think you are saved, but you believe in a “different god”, one who is not the God of the Bible. No, you can’t take refuge in the “Jesus” you claim to believe in. You see, the three Persons of the Trinity are a unit; the very same essence. Therefore, if you get one wrong, you get all Three wrong. If you rob the Holy Spirit of His person-hood, you necessarily rob the Son and the Father as well. The Three are a Tri-UNITY; distinct, but inseparable.
Now, you can take refuge in the real Jesus; the One sent by the real Father, the Jesus who died in your place, and who wants to indwell you–seal you in Him with the real Holy Spirit (the Person).
In short, you must believe in the real God.
So, I beg you–and owl, and jaz, and every other anti-Trinitarian who is lurking about this blog–to repent; change you mind, reject the heresy you have taught, promoted and defended here and elsewhere. Come to the God of the Bible, and be saved. Accept what the Bible says about the Tri-une God, whether you understand the teaching or not.
None of us can understand the Trinity exhaustively, nor do we claim to. But some of us have decided to believe what God’s written word says about Himself anyway. That is true humility.
That is worshiping God instead of intellect.
This is true… the doctrine of the trinity is the the doctrine of God. John MacArthur has a gift of speaking clearly to these sorts of questions. He was asked, “Can You Be a Christian and Deny the Trinity?” The link will take you to his response.
Chuckles said ((None of us can understand the Trinity exhaustively) That is exactly what I have said from the beginning! Our Faith must be based on Knowledge. We are not to believe in that which we have no understanding. I have said that the present concept of the trinity with which i do not agree is catholic base.
I have also said that I in no way denied the Deity of the Father, Jesus the Son of God and the holy Spirit of God.. I have also shared what I received in prayer concerning the Trinity and in no way does it contradict Scripture. below is what I said the Lord showed me.
Many have tried to explain the concepts of a Trinitarian God. I certainly just believed what most are taught within the mainline denominations. But it was a belief not based upon Knowledge, because I did not understand the concept of three persons in one God. So; I decided to seek God on the matter I wanted to understand and know the truth of it.
Below is a brief of what God showed me.
“By the word of the lord the heavens were made, and by -the breath of His mouth- all their hosts” Psalms33:6
“For He spoke and it was done; He commanded and it stood fast Psalms33:9
There is no shadow of a doubt that these verses by the Psalmist confirm the Gen1 account of creation wherein God -said- and it was done. If God -says- it means that He spoke, and that is exactly what the scripture verses above reveal.
It is true is it not, that the -word- which was in the beginning Jn1:1 is the very ‘breath of God’s mouth’Psalms33:6 which He spake the creation into being.
That word is not detached as a separate -person/entity/angel- from God. It is that which God spoke personally with His mouth and from His very being (His breath)
For the Word spoken in Gen1 is “alive and active” The word that sustains all things, It brought forth Light Gen1:3
It is that Word which also became Flesh and dwelt among us as the ‘light’ of Men Jn1:4
It is in that context that we need to understand Jn1:1-3
So; Jesus in the Flesh as He is known to the Apostle was the word (Logos) in the beginning which was with God.
By Him Jesus which the Apostle knows in the Flesh to be the manifestation of that spoken Word from God’s mouth by which all things came into being Jn1:3 Gen1:3
We need to understand the rhetoric of the Apostle’s words.
There was no Jesus the son of God until after the word became flesh… “behold you will conceive in the womb and bear a Son, and you shall name Him Jesus……And will be called the Son of the most High” Lk1:31,32
It was when The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary Lk1:35 that the Word of God became Flesh.
Therefore; in the beginning there was only God and His Spirit moving over the waters and the “breath of His mouth” expressed in what He said. Gen1:2
Is Jesus deity? Most definitely! For God and His word are One never to pass away.
The common Trinitarian doctrine as it stands within the mainline denominations do not take into account what I have explained in relation to the Psalms scriptures.
Chuckles, I appreciate your passionate defense of the trinity, but you are over emphasizing its importance to my personal salvation. That is because you are discounting faith in the equation.
I pray to our God in Jesus’s name that He may lead me to salvation through communion with The Holy Spirit inspite of any doctrinal misunderstandings I might have. He sees my heart to submit to His service and He is good and faithful to not leave me stranded. To shepherd me. The Spirit of Truth will LEAD me into all understanding. That implies that I have somewhere to be led and I am faithful enough to follow. Faith is premium. Knowledge and head smarts less so.
The tragedy is not in doctrinal misunderstanding, although that might save us a lot of headache. No the tragedy is not being faithful enough to trust in God with childlike dependence to become an overcommer. We can most assuredly count on any doctrinal disputes to be center stage with whatever deception Satan has up his sleeve.
I am faithful, humble and willing to be corrected by The holy spirit. To correct me of doctrinal errors, or the very least, to not let me fall into deception over it. How would you rate your childlike dependence and faith in this regard? I ask that, not as challenge or implication to your level of faith, but as an open question for all of us to consider. We can fight for truth, which is the word of God, but truth can not be seperated from faith. Truth without faith has no momentum and faith without truth has no compass.
Invoking the Holy Spirit is not an excuse to be governed by your emotions rather than reason. You have to use reason to come to correct doctrine. Scripture proves the trinity by logical deduction as I have clearly presented in the post. Denial of the trinity is not a doctrinal dispute but a denial of God, it is blasphemous, especially once one has been shown and instructed in the truth.
I have a question for you Chuckles;
Is the God of -Papal Rome- the God of the bible?
Why are today’s christians so vain to think that they will be raptured, escape tribulation, when all throughout history, especially today, that christians are being persecuted and killed for their faith. If a christian is confronted in a “do or die” situation, that christian will want to live. It’s human nature. At that moment of decision, fear has enveloped the mind and soul of that person forgetting that a better life awaits them after death.
The recent comment made by Pope Francis that assures atheists: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven; has true catholic’s watching. The Pope has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences. Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience. True catholic’s know what the word of God says. Here is the chapter heading from chapter 3 in the book of Genesis from the Douay-Rheims Bible. {The serpent’s craft. The fall of our first parents. Their punishment. The promise of a Redeemer.} Here is the first five verse’s of this chapter. [1] Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman: Why hath God commanded you, that you should not eat of every tree of paradise? [2] And the woman answered him, saying: Of the fruit of the trees that are in paradise we do eat: [3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die. [4] And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. [5] For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil. This event is clear. Man must obey God to be with God. Man trying to justify himself will result in death or separation from God. I also would like to show what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches. Number [160] To be human, “man’s response to God by faith must be free, and… therefore nobody is to be forced to embrace the faith against his will. The act of faith is of its very nature a free act.” “God calls men to serve him in spirit and in truth. Consequently they are bound to him in conscience, but not coerced. . . This fact received its fullest manifestation in Christ Jesus.” Indeed, Christ invited people to faith and conversion, but never coerced them. “For he bore witness to the truth but refused to use force to impose it on those who spoke against it. His kingdom… grows by the love with which Christ, lifted up on the cross, draws men to himself.” Number [161] Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.'”
Pope Frances is sounding to true catholic’s as speaking with a forked tongue. God Bless and let us all pray that every person may come to know our Lord Jesus Christ…
This right here says it all: the God of the Christians.
You got that right ! God Bless…
(Pope speaking with fork tongue) But that is not possible according to the infallible status of the vicar of Christ !
They also contradict their Catechism, for it was 600 years of forced conversion or die applied to all heretics during the inquisition of the Dark ages.
Romans 14: [11] For it is written: As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. [12] Therefore every one of us shall render account to God for himself. Matthew 12: [36] But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment. [37] For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
God Bless…
This outreach to Atheists is of necessity.
Pope John Paul 2 ecumenical’s interfaith ground work ‘All roads lead to Rome’ apply to those who are religiously minded. But the Atheist, These who say there is no God also must be brought into the Babylonian fold!
How-else can all ‘nations and tongues’ worship the image of the beast?
The Two Horned Lamb-like prophet is conditioning the minds of all who love not the truth to accept The Mark of the beast!
Tom and Cris wrote the book Petrus Romanus the final Pope is here. I never even knew there was this prophecy, until I watched a You Tube video of Tom and Cris and Steve Quayle talking on a internet radio show. We are with out a doubt living in unprecedented times. God Bless…
I first seen the You Tube video with Tom,Cris, and Steve Quayle back in early March of this year. P.S. I forgot to say this in the previous reply. God Bless…
How strange it is; that the Catholicism that once persecuted heretic protestants Presently Kiss Muslims, Atheists and Homosexuals. Seems like this Italian Francis from Argentina is some kind of sugar Daddy!
Let’s not be deceived folks; This exalted prelate, will show His true colours to be Scarlet, the colour of the Beast Rev17:3
Jaz…You said that far better than I ever could have, and you were probably more polite. I have been coming to Cris’ site more often in the last few days, thinking that all the defenders would come and spew “Catholicism” instead of talking about Jesus. They can’t even defend it anymore. I graduated from a Catholic College many years ago, and I might say “I am not Catholic”. I remember having conversations during those years, and whenever the discussion of religion came up the rebuttal was almost always, that doesn’t matter “I am Catholic”. Doesn’t matter what the bible says “I am Catholic”. There are a billion of us and “I am Catholic”, therefore I must be right. The frustration I find now is I am born again, and when I have a conversation with a Catholic, my heart breaks with sorrow. Blind leading the Blind. I have been involved with Christian Ministries for several years, and looking back on the many conversations I have had with former Catholics, the key word is former. When the Spiritual blindness is lifted, they flee. The Truth is a person, and not a religion. It is a relationship with the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ…Keep Looking Up, James
I hav a past like yourself indoctrinated into the belief that catholics are the ones and only. Educated by nuns and friers.
The binding agent that is used by them Is The doctrine of ‘Apostolic succession Peter the rock’. Even after being born a new by the Holy Spirit, I still questioned the possibility of it for a few years. In the end it was by answered prayer that I was able to shake that stronghold.
There are many Catholics who are in such predicament and I have seen many come to shake off that stronghold in time. I still argue with catholics on occasion but I am careful not to Judge them. In the end ‘the truth sets us all free’ and that goes for those of all denominations that cling to false doctrine in one form or another.
Jaz, Again you say it better. Catholicism doesn’t have the monopoly, but just about as close as it gets!!!…James
His statements would make him a false teacher but I haven’t heard of any prophecies he has spoken that would make him a false prophet. There is a difference, isn’t there? We use the terms so loosely. Either way he’s misinformed in his understanding of God’s word.
The pope speaks ex-cathedra as God’s mouthpiece. The false prophet is not so much about fore-telling of future events, but rather falsely speaking on God’s behalf as the vicar of Christ with his ‘Lamblike’ appearance Rev13:11
jaz says:
“Chuckles said ((None of us can understand the Trinity exhaustively) That is exactly what I have said from the beginning!”
No, it is entirely different than what you have said at any time. I said that the Trinity cannot be understood exhaustively. I NEVER said that the Trinity cannot be understood at all. There is all the difference in the world between what I have said and what you have said about “understanding” the Trinity. Obviously, there must be some degree of understanding in order to even discuss the issue.
“Our Faith must be based on Knowledge.”
And knowledge of the truth about God comes from what the Bible says, not from what we think it should say based on our own understanding (or experiences).
“We are not to believe in that which we have no understanding.”
Actually, we are told to “lean NOT on [our] own understanding” (Prov. 3:5). Faith is not always opposed to understanding, but it always goes beyond understanding. That is why faith (taking God at His word) is necessary in the first place!
And, again, I didn’t say we can have no understanding of the Trinity, I said our knowledge cannot be exhaustive, that is, “complete, comprehensive in scope, thorough”, regarding the Trinity, which involves the nature of God Himself, He being the infinite Creator of all things.
“I have said that the present concept of the trinity with which i do not agree is catholic base.”
Yes, several times, and I have pointed out before that you are completely wrong about that. The RCC did not originate the doctrine of the Trinity–God in three Persons. The doctrine comes from the Bible, not from Rome.
“I have also said that I in no way denied the Deity of the Father, Jesus the Son of God and the holy Spirit of God..”
And I have pointed out how you have indeed “denied the Deity of the Father, Jesus the Son of God and the holy Spirit of God” by your re-definition of the Holy Spirit as an “it”, a non-person. I have dealt with the errors and implications of such thinking in my post of 09/20/2013 at 12:53 am and elsewhere in other threads on this blog. More to the point, there have been several scholarly references and video links also posted on this blog in more than one thread dealing with the Trinity. The answers to all of your objections are there. Apparently, you have chosen to ignore them. You continue to re-post the same false arguments and non-sequiturs, as though you haven’t read a single word or watched a single video which has been posted. I can’t help but wonder at that. Perhaps your apparent blindness is due to this:
“I have also shared what I received in prayer concerning the Trinity and in no way does it contradict Scripture. below is what I said the Lord showed me.”
And you suppose that settles it? You believe if you prayed about it… well, that guarantees that what you “received in prayer” was from God? No way would any deceiving spirit (they’re persons too, you know) try to mislead you? And so, you’ve bent your own understanding of Scripture enough to fit with what you “received in prayer”?
The last time I heard that line of reasoning, it came from the mouth of a Mormon who was trying to convince me that the Book of Mormon “really is from God!” He had a “revelation” as well, and it was “received in prayer” just like yours.
The “answer” he heard is just as false as what you heard.
Finally, jaz said again:
“I have a question for you Chuckles; Is the God of -Papal Rome- the God of the bible?”
Good question. In a word: No. Here’s why not…
Although the RCC does profess a belief in the Trinity–even using the word in their catechism–they compromise the Trinity in various ways. One of the ways is via Mary worshi… er, “veneration”. Over the centuries, the “blessed virgin” has gained stature and authority in RC dogma, to the point where she has been inserted directly between the believer and Christ Himself, to the point where “the Queen of Heaven” (another name for her) is considered equal with Christ. (Maybe you’re aware of that already.) That insertion is a veiled compromise of the Godhead (the Trinity). By making Mary equal to the Son–“Co-Redemptrix” they call her–Rome has turned the Trinity into a “quad-nity”. (Not that any Catholic would admit to that, but that’s what Mary worship boils down to.)
Another way is through the doctrine of the Eucharist. In that blasphemous ritual, Jesus–the Son of God Himself–is (supposedly) “manifested” literally, actually (but not in appearance!) in the “host” at every celebration of the Mass. This “miracle” can be performed (supposedly) by any ordained Catholic priest. It is what the Catholic priesthood–ordination–is all about. This “miracle” is performed so that “Jesus” can be offered up in sacrifice again, repeatedly, for sins, even though Scripture says He was offered “once, for all” (Rom. 6:10, Heb. 7:27, Heb. 9:12), and that He is “never to die again” (Rom. 6:9). (Catholics can then “receive” the “Grace of God” through “partaking” of this abomination by swallowing the host. Such is the travesty that Rome has turned the Lord’s Supper into.) Clearly then, Rome worships a “different Jesus”, and therefore a different god, and therefore a different trinity from the biblical Jesus, God, Trinity.
Those are just a couple of Rome’s compromises with the Trinity. It’s typical of the RCC’s approach to heresy; indirect, subtle (at first), leaving them “wiggle room” when objections are raised, but just as poisonous as the direct approach.
Now, notice something else here: Rome does all that–all of it–while claiming “in no way does it contradict Scripture”. (Of course, that denial does nothing to change the fact of it.) If any objection is raised based on Scripture, Rome bends Scripture with their own “ordained” interpretation, supporting whatever heresy they find useful. And here’s the kicker: How did they come to “receive” all that heresy? In prayer ! In cathedrals, monasteries, sacred gardens, caves, wherever, it all came after much prayer (and in some cases “meditation”).
So, you see, jaz, the fact that you “prayed about it” doesn’t guarantee that every answer you “hear” is from God. That’s why He gave us His written word as the Standard by which to “prove all things”. But, in order for that Standard to work for you, you must employ all of it that applies, and let the word speak for itself. The real Holy Spirit is here to guide you, if you will stop listening to that “it” you think is God.
Jaz, I sympathize with your journey out of the RCC, and I commend you for your courage in leaving it. I’ve made the same journey (though it seems we have arrived at two different places). Rome’s heresies are many, thick, and pervasive. Indeed, they are to be abandoned, BUT…don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.
The Trinity is NOT an invention of Rome. As the Bible clearly indicates: the Three are One, and He is God Himself.
Chuckles; if you can find fault in what I said below, Then show me where I oppose the scriptures and not your theology OK!
I am reposting this just for you, because I do not believe that you understood what I am saying. why don’t you pray about it. and ask the Lord to show you if there be any opposition to His Word.
“By the word of the lord the heavens were made, and by -the breath of His mouth- all their hosts” Psalms33:6
“For He spoke and it was done; He commanded and it stood fast Psalms33:9
There is no shadow of a doubt that these verses by the Psalmist confirm the Gen1 account of creation wherein God -said- and it was done. If God -says- it means that He spoke, and that is exactly what the scripture verses above reveal.
It is true is it not, that the -word- which was in the beginning Jn1:1 is the very ‘breath of God’s mouth ’Psalms33:6 which He spake the creation into being.
That word is not detached as a separate -person/entity/angel- from God. It is that which (((God spoke personally)))) with His mouth and from His very being (His breath)
For the Word spoken in Gen1 is “alive and active” The word that sustains all things, It brought forth Light Gen1:3
It is that Word which also became Flesh and dwelt among us as the ‘light’ of Men Jn1:4
It is in that context that we need to understand Jn1:1-3
So; Jesus in the Flesh as He is known to the Apostle was the word (Logos) in the beginning which was with God.
By Him, Jesus which the Apostle knows in the Flesh to be the manifestation of that spoken Word from God’s mouth by which all things came into being Jn1:3 Gen1:3
We need to understand the rhetoric of the Apostle’s words.
There was no Jesus the son of God until after the word became flesh… “behold you will conceive in the womb and bear a Son, and you shall name Him Jesus……And will be called the Son of the most High” Lk1:31,32
(It was when The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary Lk1:35 that the Word of God became Flesh).
Therefore; in the beginning there was only God and His Spirit moving over the waters and the “breath of His mouth” expressed in what He said. Gen1:2
Is Jesus deity? Most definitely! For God and His word are One never to pass away.
The common Trinitarian doctrine as it stands within the mainline denominations do not take into account what I have explained in relation to the Psalms scriptures.
hopeful_watcher said:
“Chuckles, I appreciate your passionate defense of the trinity, but you are over emphasizing its importance to my personal salvation.”
Tragically, very wrong. The Holy Spirit–Who is the third Person of the Trinity–is the One sent to testify to the means of your personal salvation; the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. No “it” spirit is going to lead you to Christ, not to the real One, anyway. Any spirit masquerading as an “it” will eventually lead you away from the real Christ to a false “christ”.
“That is because you are discounting faith in the equation.”
I do no such thing. Actually, it is you who discounts the true object of saving faith. Biblical saving faith must have its proper object, and when you deny the Holy Spirit’s person-hood, you deny the person-hood of the Father and the Son as well, since they are of the same essence. . The fact that you don’t see that results in a fundamental flaw in your view of God, leaving you trusting in a false, unbiblical god.
“I pray to our God in Jesus’s name that He may lead me to salvation through communion with The Holy Spirit in spite of any doctrinal misunderstandings I might have.”
Fine, but, since you believe the Holy Spirit is a non-person, you ask for the wrong thing. “Salvation through communion” with an “it” is not biblical salvation at all.
Yes, I know about the disciples at Ephesus in Acts 19. They had been baptized into John’s baptism of repentance, but knew nothing of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 19:2). But, when Paul told them about the Holy Spirit, thereby correcting them, they received the correction and believed. The real Holy Spirit had been ministering to them, and He then indwelt them and came upon them just as He did with others in Acts 2. The point is, they took correction regarding the Holy Spirit. You do not, hence my concern for you.
“He sees my heart to submit to His service and He is good and faithful to not leave me stranded.”
What? You expect your supposed “submission” to “His service” — His service to commend you to Him?!? That’s the very essence of legalism! You’re trusting in your own heart–and to your mis-reading of your own heart at that! (Jer. 17:9) He doesn’t want your self-trusting “submission to service”, He wants your belief–your testimony to His trustworthiness, His Truth! That is “the work of God”, that you believe, not “submit to service”. The first order of true submission is your believing in His sacrifice for you. It is His shed blood that saves, not your weak and volatile “submission to His service”. It is the Gospel of UN-merited favor–GRACE–to which we submit, not to “service”!
“The Spirit of Truth will LEAD me into all understanding.”
“The Spirit of Truth”, yes. The spirit you’re following, no. “It” will only lead you deeper into darkness. From your post quoted above, it’s evident to me that you do not understand biblical salvation at all. (More cause for my concern.)
“Faith is premium. Knowledge and head smarts less so.”
“Faith” in the wrong object is worse than worthless. It is deadly.
“The tragedy is not in doctrinal misunderstanding, although that might save us a lot of headache. No the tragedy is not being faithful enough to trust in God with childlike dependence to become an overcommer.”
You talk about “childlike dependence”, and yet refuse to let go of your intellectual rejection of the plain teaching of Scripture re: the Holy Spirit.
“We can most assuredly count on any doctrinal disputes to be center stage with whatever deception Satan has up his sleeve.”
Wrong again. What we can count on is Satan’s ecumenical mantra; “What difference does it make?” which we see in the Pope’s proclamations in the article above!
“I am faithful, humble and willing to be corrected by The holy spirit. To correct me of doctrinal errors, or the very least, to not let me fall into deception over it.”
The “it” you listen to will not correct you on this point, but only reinforce the deception. You see, he (yes, Satan is a person too, lying spirit that he is) finds it easier to work when viewed as an “it”. That’s probably one reason why he pushes that lie about God so hard. It’s two lies in one.
Btw, Scripture also teaches that angelic beings are persons, too. We’re even given the names of a couple (Michael, Gabriel). They (those not fallen) are also called “ministering spirits” by the writer of Hebrews (Heb. 1:14). How come angels get to be persons as well as spirits, but the Holy Spirit doesn’t? Jus’ askin’.
“How would you rate your childlike dependence and faith in this regard?”
My “childlike dependence and faith”? Not what it should be, certainly. And yet, my “childlike dependence and faith” is sufficient that I can accept and believe God’s word as it stands regarding His Holy Spirit. Apparently, you have not done as much. Watch out for that “humble” claim.
“We can fight for truth, which is the word of God, but truth can not be seperated from faith. Truth without faith has no momentum and faith without truth has no compass.”
Your statement is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Where have I ever argued against faith? Nowhere! (Are you trying to change the subject again?)
Sigh. I can see you are determined to remain in your error and unbelief.
So sad.
I’ll conclude this post with two final thoughts:
1) There’s another aspect of the Holy Spirit as a Person which should give us all pause: He can be blasphemed. (Mt. 12:31)
2) You are in VERY great danger, hopeful_watcher.
Who knew you were the gate keeper to my salvation correcting me of every legalistic wrong doing I have ever done? May you please forgive me. Grace, who needs you. I’ve got Chuckles now.
it is called I believe Jesus said ” straining out Gnats and swallow a camel Mat23:24
There is nothing wrong with (seeking) our sphere of service. and submitting to it.
There is nothing wrong with (asking) for revelation on things that are not understood.
Blessings are only known by those who receive them.
hopeful_watcher said:
“Who knew you were the gate keeper to my salvation”
That’s something unbelievers often say to those attempting to share the Gospel with them.
You’re displaying the same unbelieving pattern, hopeful_watcher.
Of course, I am an unbeliever hearing the gospel for the first time. It’s like you are looking straight into my soul.
Working through the nature of the spirit in scripture and prayer is not equivalent to denial of the trinity, nor is it blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I acknowledge and submit to The power of gravity, but I don’t fully understand how it works. Does not understanding the nature of gravity mean I am cursing and rejecting the power of gravity to you? Of course not.
You want to crucify anyone who doesn’t agree with your interpretion of the scripture. Tell me oh wise one, was Jesus a “heritic” for healing someome on the Sabbath?
The arrogance on this forum sickens me. The amount of times I hear heresy this or heritic that, we are starting to sound like a bunch of Catholics wanting to excommunicate anyone who doesn’t have a PHD behind there name.
“their” name… Sorry. In case anyone wants to be a grammar Nazi and imply I am illiterate as well as a heritic! The editor on staff was out to lunch.
hopeful_watcher said:
“Of course, I am an unbeliever hearing the gospel for the first time.”
Hmm, wounded sarcasm. I never implied that you hadn’t heard the gospel before, only that you haven’t understood it, nor do you know the God who offers it.
“Working through the nature of the spirit in scripture and prayer is not equivalent to denial of the trinity, nor is it blaspheming the Holy Spirit.”
And now we have revision of history! You have done much more than pose honest questions or propose ideas. You have denied–flat out rejected–the biblical doctrine of the Trinity (which includes the Person-hood of the Holy Spirit) quite clearly. You have tried your best to discredit the doctrine, stating plainly that you don’t agree with it. That is nothing else than denial, and you are being quite dishonest by trying to cover it up!
“I acknowledge and submit to The power of gravity, but I don’t fully understand how it works. Does not understanding the nature of gravity mean I am cursing and rejecting the power of gravity to you? Of course not.”
Again you revise the facts. I haven’t said that one must understand the Trinity completely. I have maintained that we are required to know what Scripture says about the Trinity and believe it as stated.
“You want to crucify anyone who doesn’t agree with your interpretion of the scripture.”
Nonsense. Self-evident, utter nonsense. You continually bend Scripture to make it say whatever you have decided it should say.
“The arrogance on this forum sickens me.”
Tell me about it!! Especially as the “arrogance” comes from those most often claiming to be so “humble”!
“The amount of times I hear heresy this or heritic that, we are starting to sound like a bunch of Catholics wanting to excommunicate anyone who doesn’t have a PHD behind there name.”
Now you’re beginning to lose it, hopeful_watcher. You’re “ranting” in an increasingly incoherent fashion.
But hey, I’m not telling you to quit posting. I’d never do that. Continue to post all you want, it’s becoming quite entertaining, not to mention illustrative. If Cris gets tired of it, he can always close the thread, so have at it, oh humble one!
Was Jesus a heretic for healing on the Sabbath? The phariseas determined through their interpretation of sacred scripture that He was. Surely you must agree with them.
Or did they not read “what Scripture says about the [Sabbath] and believe it as stated”?
If I stop posting on this blog it will be because it is utterly fruitless, which it looks that way more and more daily.
The religious are devoted to their religion! That statement was true in Y’shua’s (Jesus) day and also true today!
The Samaritans sent Y’shua (Jesus) on his way for not playing religion with them on Mt. Gerizim. The Pharisees condemned him to die on the cross for not playing religion with them.
The Pharisees created a system of laws around the word of God, a fence. These laws were what was being taught and adhered to before, during, and after Y’shua (Jesus).
THESE laws are what Y’shua (Jesus) broke and encouraged others to break!
(NOTE: Phariseeism IS modern day Rabbinic Judaism)
People are not getting this!
For 1700 years we have been playing Constantinian Catholicism and variations thereof lumped under Christianity! Christians are being led down the wide road to destruction under the guise of church doctrine and theology by unscrupulous men who are brainwashed in cemetery (aka seminary) school and teach others the same.
Man shall not live on bread and water alone but by the WORD of God! Come out of her my brothers and sisters and follow the Hebrew Jew, Y’shua, not the pagan churchianity religion created by man (duped by Satan). They won’t even call him by his name – Y’shua (anglicized, Joshua).
The religious will cling to their religious doctrine to the point of their destruction because that is what they have invested themselves into. Just like the Pharisees, they will not be persuaded by truth because they have reasoned wisdom… dogma, doctrine, and theology, and other man made words to describe THEIR interpretation of the Scriptures.
I remain hopeful that mankind will let go of their church centered redemption and once more cling to THE WORD of God, Y’shua, who taught the Scriptures – the very ones that God the Father dictated to and inspired to be written by his servants. The very ones that churchianity claims to have passed away.
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