First, I want to assure you that I long for the Lord’s appearance and I believe it is near. I also think there are good arguments to support the idea. Unfortunately, there are also some really bad ones. I think it is neat that the constellations are lining up as Revelation 12 describes on 9/29 because I think it is the real birthday of Jesus but I would never use that as predictor for Christ’s return. I confess that I used to get excited by many of the various date setting schemes. However, I was convicted by the Spirit of God when I saw that they always fail and lead to great error and confusion. I repented and I refuse to set dates or make predictions. To say the time is near is enough. John the Baptist came as a prophet declaring the Day of the Lord. His message was “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”(Mt 3:2). Will you listen?
Harold Camping recently set a date and when it passed, he simply moved it forward. This is not new behavior as he did the same thing back in 1994.
Harold Camping, in his book Are You Ready?, predicted the Lord would return in September 1994. The book was full of numerology that added up to 1994 as the date of Christ’s return. (rapture ready.com)
The only reason someone does not repent when they have advocated a date and it passes is pride. Pride is the root of sinfulness. CS Lewis famously wrote:
Unchastity, anger, greed, drunkenness, and all that, are mere fleabites in comparison: it was through Pride that the devil became the devil: Pride leads to every other vice: it is the complete anti-God state of mind. (Lewis, Mere Christianity, 122)
If you are right and Jesus returns then Hallelujah but I hope you are prepared to humble yourself when nothing happens. So what are you going to do if nothing happens on 9/29? Will you be like Harold Camping make excuses and change the date or will you admit you are wrong and repent of date setting? Repent means you completely turn from it. What I would like to suggest is that you simply learn your lesson and never engage in it again. I pray you will swallow your pride, turn to Jesus and repent. Also, do as I am doing and teach others not to do it. It is your duty as a disciple. This sort of thing has caused so many problems for Christians, it is not harmless, it ruins lives!
For the past month, reports have been pouring out of Vietnam that an unknown number of Hmong Christians have been killed, attacked, or arrested by military forces. The Vietnamese government has closed off outside access to the Muong Nhe District in Dien Bien, where an estimated 10,000 Hmong Christians from the Central Highlands and Dien Bien have been congregating since late April. Insiders who are able to leak information past government forces and media controls have reported that as many as 70 Hmong have been killed so far, though exact numbers cannot be confirmed. These Hmong have also been brutally attacked and arrested by the Vietnamese government, while most are fleeing into hiding to spare their lives. Meanwhile the outside world is unable to send in help.
But why did this even take place? What led 10,000 Hmong Christians to come together in peace yet face such a brutal and violent end? Answer: Harold Camping. Worldwide media have reported on the gathering of Hmong in this region, and ICC sources have confirmed the underlying premise of these gatherings to be primarily due to Mr. Camping’s influence.
Knowing that date setting leads to this sort of thing should pierce your heart and lead to repentance.
See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
(Mt 24:25-27)
Please see the Date Setter’s Diary at Rapture Ready.com
About Cris Putnam
Ok, I’m curious about “constellations are lining up as Revelation 12 describes” and ” real birthday of Jesus” (I know Christmas is pagan in origin and not Christ’s birthday). I have read Revelation many times and read several commentaries and that’s new to me, can you elaborate on those or link me to a source for those ideas.
Vince, Thanks for you comment, 3 things. First, I appreciate your question, I wish more Christians would ask questions and use discernment. Bravo! Second, that was Dr Michael Heiser in the video, he has a PhD in Hebrew Bible and is very discriminating about the views he holds, he’s a real serious biblical scholar. Here is his website Third, I think Mike got most of it from a book about the Star of Bethlehem. You can read about it yourself in chapter 5 of Martin’s book here. Personally, I also think the idea has a lot to commend it and I think that is what John was inferring in Rev 12.
Thanks Cris, I will read that. Do you not think Rev.12:1 is referring to Israel (those are the idioms used in Joseph’s dream), 12:2 to Christ birth 12:3-4 referring to the original rebellion and fall of Satan and 1/3 of the Angelic host? (I don’t think Mr. Heiser covered the Dragon’s tail drawing 1/3 of the stars from Heaven, and stars in scripture are often referring to celestial being’s). It would not suprise me if both are true, I am mindful to look for literal meaning and to look for types but if what Mr. Heiser say’s is true this opens up a whole other dimension. Wow, thanks again.
Yes the woman is Israel (and Mary). I see Rev 12 as progressing from Jesus birth into history. My view is that Satan and 1/3 were cast to earth at the cross from multiple lines of evidence in the NT. I explain it all in a response to Heron here.
Thanks for the post and the good work you do on the site, but in this case I think you may be working more from emotion and not from a sound scriptural foundation.
NO ONE — including this Christian — is setting the date of 9/29 as the day Christ will “absolutely positively Thus saith the Lord” return for His Bride. Independent of any space phenomenon including ELEnin or anything else, we are commanded to watch and be ready several times by Jesus Himself in the gospels (Matthew 24:42/Mark 13:37/Luke 21:36). We are commanded to look up for our redemption when we see these things BEGIN to happen (Luke 21:28). So first, please consider that your “advice” is actually in direct contradiction to the Word of God.
I understand this is not specifically a prophecy blog — maybe God hasn’t called you to that and is obviously using you in another capacity here. But calling on true Spirit-led believers to “repent” of their watching…well, you don’t have ANY scriptural foundation for that whatsoever. Tread carefully.
And whatever happens (or doesn’t) this week, keep looking up because our redemption DOES draw near!
God bless,
Ian
@Ian – “No one” really? Are you omniscient? Seriously, I wonder how you feel qualified to know that about everyone? I see a lot of evidence otherwise. Because according to a lot of folks the poles are going to shift and major earthquakes will occur all over the world along with a 3 day eclipse. It’s all over youtube. A commenter on my post below is predicting the rapture on 29th in no uncertain terms. That is the same thing Camping did that has led to the imprisonment and murder of 100s who took him seriously. There’s a huge difference between watching and being an alarmist date setter. It’s wrong and it is entirely different than watching. Why don’t you prayerfully follow the link at the bottom of the post to rapture ready and just read through the date setters diary
“Because according to a lot of folks the poles are going to shift and major earthquakes will occur all over the world along with a 3 day eclipse. It’s all over youtube.”
….and this represents the Church how exactly? Because kooks on the Internet claim the name of Christ and make predictions based on their own flawed and limited data? That’s the same kind of fallacious reasoning that leads people to associate the Bible-obeying, Spirit-filled believers in Christ with the persecutors of the Spanish Inquisition. Jesus said you shall know them by their fruit. That must be the standard.
“That is the same thing Camping did that has led to the imprisonment and murder of 100s who took him seriously. ”
And equating prayerful watchfulness and longing for his appearing (2 Tim. 4:8) with mass murder? It sounds like you have a problem with students of eschatology — or even the harpazo itself — rather than “date setting”. How do you propose we watch? By not saying anything and just assuming everyone’s watching? That’s foolishness.
Again: just because someone throws up a date and the name of Christ doesn’t mean they’re obeying the Word. The question is: are you? Again, I’m only using scripture to respond to your comments, and I believe that if you are making a counter-argument, you would first have to address those verses cited above. Because whether its next week or next decade, He IS coming again (John 14:3) and our Lord has very harsh words for those who say he is delaying:
45″Who then is the faithful and wise servant,[c] whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 47Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 48But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ 49and begins to beat his fellow servants[d] and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:45-51
Ian, I am student of eschatology having studied Daniel and Revelation at the graduate level. Christians predicted those events due to the comet, my point is they are being irresponsible. Putting a date on the rapture is similar. My post was directed to date setters. I wonder why you seem to think it applies to you?
BTW: Your exegesis is off, Jesus did not punish him for saying he was delayed rather for beating his fellow servants and his rebellious behavior.
Ian, 9/29 is now a memory but you never replied, I just wanted to check to see if you were raptured?
Cris,
I have friends who are Hmong Christians; and have worked over the last 5 years to answer every cockamamey scam on the internet about prophecy on the end-times that they bring me asking me “Lisa, is this real?”
I explain over and over again that even Jesus when he walked the earth did not know when the ‘end’ would occur. And reminde them to study their Bibles and compair what they read against the stuff on the internet.
To those who push this sensationalism, it is hard to pray “Lord, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.”
Relatives of my friends are being killed.
God have mercy and save those Hmong Christians!
Lisa
Amen Lisa. I sincerely hoped that hearing the plight of those Hmong Christians would put a stone in the shoe of these date setters. Even if for no other reason that Paul’s teaching, “It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.” (Romans 14:21) Obviously, it causes less mature Christians to stumble, so one should learn to restrain themselves from public pronouncement concerning definite dates. I am all for preaching that the day of the Lord is near but dates are a different matter. Better to not even mention them. I know that every passing day is one day closer to the Lord’s return. We are called to patience and longsuffering:
I don’t think we should be quick to point fingers at one another. We must do so with brotherly love and not lump us into camps, no pun intended (camping). Jesus left us with time oriented prophecies that we will be expected to know the time, those of us who are awake and watching. Rev 3:3. When He spoke, ‘no one will know the day or hour,’ he was speaking to those seated there with him. Look at the verb know in that verse: eido, used in certain past tense ONLY.
And remember these words,
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” — Jesus
I appreciate your desire to be charitable. But regarding Mark 13:32, in light of your view, how do you explain that Jesus said that He didn’t even know the time and not even the angels. He included himself! How do you explain, “but only the Father?”
There’s that pesky eido verb again! May I suggest that Jesus had no foreknowledge at that time of when those things he spoke of would take place, but I would say He does now! (Just thought I’d beat you to the punch to your next question.)
I think Jesus knows now as well. But I do not think that necessarily means we do. I believe the restoration of Israel is a huge sign and I think the time is soon. However, I think it it is fool hardy to set a date.
BTW the verb is not used in past tense rather the Greek perfect tense, which actually works against your theory:
I do not see how we have access to more information than the angels and apostles did, so their present state of affairs is roughly ours.
We have the benefit of 2000 years of the inspiried written Word and I think with that we can see for example:
“a thousand years is as a day to the Lord” a bit differently as in when it was penned.
1 Peter 1:
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
We have a sure foundation, Jesus being the cornerstone, and the apostles and prophets. We have the benefit of time being on our side, when Daniel wrote out the decree of the70- 7’s and the last portion of 12th chapter, he was later told don’t worry it’s not in your time, you’ll rest and receive your lot in the end of days. I thought that was a good assurance to give to him, or he would be wasting his time trying to figure it out.
The apostles didn’t even recognize Him upon his resurrection and Thomas had to poke Him in the side to believe. Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe. That means us. Jesus used that tense of verb to let them know it was not for them to know, that same assurance that was given to Daniel.
Mrs. M,
Forgive me but I’m just not sure what you mean. I am just looking for clarity. Are you saying that we can know the exact date and time of Jesus return?
I’m dying over here, I just typed it up twice and didn’t fill out my name and it disappeared. Here is the condensed version:
Yes I do. Jesus said He came not to abolish the law, but fulfill it. Feasts are a shadow of things to come. The fall feasts are left and they outline the 70th week. (btw, if we have time oriented prophecies and set times the Lord established to be observed, and the Messiah who came to fulfill them, we have our timeline)
Joel 2
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
15Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
Now look @ Lev 23:
24Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
25Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
(A solomn assembly is a holy convocation)
So from Joel 2 we can deduce Yom Teruah is the start of the 70th week, it ends on Yom Kippur-the day of the Lord.
Joel 2 also states an outpouring of the Holy Spirit before the day of the Lord, which I believe will be on Tabernacles, when Jesus said in John 7, paraphrasing, ‘he who believes in me out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.’ Tabernacles is also called final ingathering of the harvest, sounds prophetic!
Tabernacles is the only feast to be observed during the millenium Zech 14. The reason being, it hasn’t been fulfilled yet, it’s the last one. It’s fulfilled when God comes to dwell, tabernacle, with us. Rev 21:3.
I respect your view and I share some of it but it seems very speculative to me. For one,you are depending on one particular reading of Daniel’s 70 weeks while I know of over 3 views on Dan 9’s 70 weeks that sincere inerrancy believing evangelicals embrace. It’s just not a sure thing that the 70th week is a 7 year tribulation. I tend to think half the 70th week was Jesus ministry and only 3.5 years are now left. It’s quite tenuous amongst Bible scholars even though its popular. While Yom Kippur is the day of the atonement, it does not translate to “the Day of the Lord.” Day of the Lord is understood in two senses. One denoting a specific day and the other a period of time. Also some of the “day of the Lord” passages in the OT are over with, coming to pass when Babylon and Assyria attacked the 2 kingdoms. Eschatology is just not an exact science. The more I learn the more I see that. All of that being said, I think you might be right about the unfulfilled feasts. I believe that is strong possibility. It makes sense to me. However, I realize that it is tenuous enough to never fall into the error of date setting or prognostication.
To me, the verse “He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week”= resumption of the 70-7’s. I agree and think the 70th week is not all comprised of tribulation.
The reason being I think Yom Kippur is the end of the 70th week because days 1290 + 1260 encompasses the last 7 years. (how can you have a day 1290 and 1335 if you think the final week has been cut in half?) If you go to the hebrew calendar you can see when these dates are for each year and then calculate the number of days in between the next feasts to be fulfilled. It doesn’t equal exactly seven years every time; only 2005 and 2008 I think works in what years I tried.
Is 26 the Lord will come out of his dwelling and in Is 27:13 that day punish the serpent, ending in v13 about that day a great trumpet will sound and people will come to worship the Lord on the holy mountain in Jerusalem. About the great trump:
Lev.25:9 says, “Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.” One single trumpet was blown on the Day of Atonement to herald a Jubilee year.
The Lord is concluding Is 61, pronouncing the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God.
What really made sense to me was back in 05 a man named Charlie Garrett (wonderful1.com) discovered that a period of 14,000 days was used as judgement for a generation. You can find it on his web site. It happened from the time Moses brought down the second tablets to entering the promised land, from when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey to the destruction of the temple, and from June 7, 1967 to Yom Teruah 2005 when they had control of the temple mount but didn’t keep to what I believe the resumption of Daniel’s 70 7s.
Are you saying the 7 years started in 2005?
I think so.
Really? I just don’t see any of the events described in Revelation like 2/3 of the population being killed off occurring today.
Where are the two witnesses? How about the 144,000? If you are correct these things should be obvious by now.
I did it again, no name and it disappeared.
The two witnesses are told to us in Is 43: Jacob and Israel, aka Judah and Ephraim: Jews and Christians. In a future event we will be joined together and become one stick in the Father’s hand Ez 37.
As far as massive destruction coming, I think these things happen in rapid fire succession (in a short space of time) as I heard that interpretation describing Rev 1:1. This makes sense to me as the events have not happened yet and it has been almost 2000 years since it was written.
I submit this writing for your consideration concerning the two witnesses: Who is Israel? A primer by Batya Wootten. She can explain this far better than I can.
http://www.messianicisrael.com/pdfs/samples/primer.pdf
Cris,
In light of Mrs M’s comments, I’d like to post what Dr. Keith Wells (director of Denver Seminary’s library and all Master’s level writings) wrote of “The 144 thousand”…now he is refering to a song we sang in the choir I belong to, but as a Theologan, and reader of a vast array of bibilcal literature; I consider Dr. Wells an ‘Authority’ on Biblical literature and a great thinker…please read his interpretation of “John Saw Duh Numbuh”
JOHN SAW DUH NUMBUH . . . Keith Wells
“After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb.” Rev. 7:9 (NIV)
“Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.” – Rev. 14:1-3 (NIV)
It has been my privilege to share with the board reflections on the biblical and theological foundation for the ministry of Canto Deo. It is my conviction that what we sing and how we sing it must be grounded solidly in the historic Christian faith. For we sing not just notes in a score of music but we communicate a message, the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The singing of the magnificent Parker / Shaw arrangement of the great spiritual, “John Saw Duh Numbuh”, for example, prompts the question, “Who are these 144,000 who have the name of the Lamb and the Father written on their foreheads and who alone sing the ‘new song’? Various Christian groups throughout the centuries have claimed this identity for themselves to the exclusion of other Christians who differed from them in some way. But a closer look at the text provides some insight as to the true identity of these 144,000.
A careful review of the nature of apocaliptic literature and the symbolic use of numbers in that genre builds a strong case that the number is to be taken as one of completeness or wholeness. That is, those included in the 144,000 (12 X 12 X 1,000), are all those who are redeemed throughout the course of salvation history. These are those who have the mark of allegiance, have committed themselves completely to the Lamb, and who have overcome by the blood of the Lamb, by the word of their testimony, and that they loved not their lives unto death. These are the overcomers upon whom the risen Christ has written his own new name.
And what of the ‘new song’ that they sing? Notice that these alone can learn the ‘new song’ because it has to do with who they are, not whether or not they can learn new music! I confess I take some comfort in that! That’s one song that I know I can learn!!
It is identity and not ability that John has in mind here. At the very essence of who we are as a sacred choir, Canto Deo, is our identity as Christians, brothers and sisters in Christ. That identity enables us to sing in a way that native musical ability can never do. So let us sing the ‘new song’ today, and for all eternity! May that be the ‘mark’ of Canto Deo! Praise be to God!!
————————————————————————————————————————————————-
Now you can see, from an ‘authority’ that these “numbers’ (I believe and so do others) are symbolic. And I need to stress (and Cris, I think you will understand) that Dr. Keith Wells is a Biblical authority. Apocoliptic literature always needs careful interpretation, and even with the ‘careful interpretation’ leaves room for error…hence the need to give grace.
I hope this helps!
God Bless,
Lisa.
Lisa, I agree that the numbers are symbolic. But the thing that bothers me about his interpretation is that he does not account for the fact that they come from the 12 tribes of Israel. It seems that they are Jewish and not the worldwide church.
Well, you could look at it this way: with the solid change of covenant at the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD it seems to make “Israel” all of us. (Romans 11:17)
Now I know these words can cause dissention, but it does seem to tie in with the Old Testament words of Jeremiah 31:31 and much of later Isaiah (see Isaiah 65) in pointing to not only a new covenant but to those ‘other sheep’ Jesus seems to be talking about in John 10:16 “And I have other sheep…”
You know James was writing to “…the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad…” (Jas 1:1) but does that not apply to us today? I think so. This seems to be a type of literary devise. (Another words, James is writing to everybody.)
When you see that Jesus came to save you and me (and I know I am not ethnically Jewish) and we are dealing with apocalyptic literature…I don’t mean to “throw my hands up in the air” and give up; I only caution against trying to get a “solid, definitive, bottom line” THIS IS what it means…for now and forever amen!
And finish the picture of what is written…right after those words (the 144,000 of Israel) it is written in 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples an tongues, standing before the Lamb, …” so doesn’t this seem to tie in with the idea of ALL believers who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb?
I believe that the reference to Israel may be no more (or less) than a literary devise to denote us (saved believers) as grafted in (Romans again)… I know there are many contrary views on this one.
Cris, I hope this moves the discussion forward in helping, and not hindering.
And I really do enjoy these discussions! I wish more of us could get together over coffee…because working on interpreting God’s word is great!
God Bless,
Lisa
Lisa,
I believe that the church – all of us of every race, tribe, nation – are grafted into Israel as Paul argues in Romans. However, God made very specific promises to national Israel that I believe he will keep because he honors his word. I affirm the dispensational approach that God is going to chastise the unbelieving nation of Israel for denying Jesus at his first coming, so they repent and then: “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.(Zec 12:10)
I would like to suggest that you read Romans 9,10,11 in one sitting and follow Paul’s argument carefully. in my reading of it, it is crystal clear that after “the fullness of the Gentiles come in” God is going to straighten out national Israel and return to Jerusalem.
Hey Cris,
I’m going to answer your question with perhaps a non answer. I hold to the inerrancy of scripture as you do; but I am not a ‘dispensationalist’ as you are.
I could spend two + hours building a complex case that St. Paul truly did not mean Israel gets a pass based on the scholarship of NT Wright, James D.G. Dunn, Cranfield (et al) which is my own belief.
And in the end, seeing that we are both students of the Bible, Christian Philosophy, and we are both Apologists; we will both hold to our positions and think the other is wrong…and ‘walk off in a huff’ (in a manner of speaking)
.
I respect and admire your writings, and want you to remain a friend that I will (one of these days), get the chance to sit down with and have coffee at ETS/EPS…and I’ll buy!
So in the Spirit of love in Christ, let’s agree to disagree on this point.
But promise me something; when I get my chance to read at National (EPS) will you be in the audience and have a really tough question to ask me? (and I’ll even send you my paper so you get to prepare in advance!)
God Bless,
Lisa
Lisa, I appreciate your spirit of Christian unity. Forgive me for being a little forthright but if you think dispensational means “Israel gets a pass” then you really do not understand it. Maybe there are some extremists who believe that but no one that I am aware of. Be careful that you are not disagreeing with something that doesn’t exist. Nobody gets a pass, everyone must accept the Gospel for salvation. If you read those 3 chapters of Romans it is very clear. How much clearer could Paul have made it than:
All that progressive dispensationalism argues is that you should pay attention to the word “until” in this passage:
This clearly infers a time after the fullness of the gentiles comes in when God will turn his attention back to national Isreal. It’s in no way a pass. More of a scolding. And its not for their sake, rather that God is a promise keeper,
I hope you will consider my suggestion to just read those 3 chapters (Rom 9,10,11) on their own merits disregarding denominational or theological traditions.
Then Cris I obviously don’t understand “dispensationalism.”
The current day nation of Israel is an US allies: being that they are the only Democratic nation on our side surrounded by nations who are not. If that is what you mean by “Israel”…that did not exist as a nation in Paul’s day. Most Christians I have run into that say they are Dispensationalists…this is what they tell me they believe…And I don’t think that is what you are saying…is it?
If you mean ethnically: Well that’s more God’s judgment…how is one judged in this day and age as being ethnically a child of Abraham…I think Paul was talking about those who were considered Jewish and attended a synagogue (plus God-fearers) and rejected Jesus as the Messiah…now today would those who are truly faithful Jews, and are followers of Torah getting a “second chance”…That I would believe; they love God (Adoni, Eloim, YHWH)…I could agree with you on that…according to this reading I can ‘see’ that…that God would reach out again with grace so that more would come to faith in Jesus as the Messiah…ok, I’m with you there
.
And I have heard Dispensationalsim described by what sound to me like God changing…um, he’s the same yesterday, today and forever…we’re the ones who change as we understand more of God’s attributes in light of Scripture, theology and philosophy.
And I know we are in agreement on salvation through “Christ Alone!”
And in Romans, Paul is making a complex case of justification by faith alone…And he (if he thought it would help, and if it were possible) give up his salvation for the sake of his brethren…and he points out that the Gentiles were grafted in…and branches (Israel) were cut off…and I will give a quote from J.D.G. Dunn (Word Biblical Commentary):
P 695
By coming to see that their[the Jews] exclusive claim to God’s covenanted mercy was what was actually disqualifying them from that mercy, they would become open once again to receiving that mercy as sheer mercy, mercy to the disobedient. This interaction of Jewish disobedience, resulting in Gentiles receiving mercy, resulting in Jews at large receiving the same mercy, is already in play, part of the escahatological “now” already in train, and shortly to reach its consummation just as soon as the sound of the gospel already winging its way to the limits of the inhabited world…has resulted in the incoming of the full number of Gentiles.
OK…so I’ve never been “indoctrinated” into any-one ‘system’…what the heck! It seems that we don’t have a problem here…unless you (under this heading) have grafted in something I don’t know about…so is there a book I can pick out of the library…I’ll be at Denver Sem. Tomorrow am…?
What I don’t get, if those who do ‘love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength’…and I know a bunch of persons of Jewish descent who love Yeshua/Jesus…what are we even talking about? That sounds a lot like Jewish believers ‘coming to the light’ to me.
And unfortunately, I know of those of Jewish descent who are pretty much Buddhists…whoops!
So…book suggestions?
Thanks, by-the-way…I was in a bad mood today…and now this conversation has helped me “change the channel” mentally…I’m in a much better mood now!
You know…this is another of those “read about it yourself” moments…don’t listen what others ‘think’ they understand about something. I still will let you know if I get the chance to read again…you’ll have to challenge me with a tough question…and if I can’t answer it, I’ll buy you dinner…but if I can, you’ll have to buy me dinner…is that a challenge? *chuckle*
Hey, great post Lisa, I am glad I encouraged you and that you are open to the idea. The book I recommend is Progressive Dispensationalism by Bock and Blaising
A long answer to say, Yep…I agree with you!
*sigh* See, I can’t seem to answer in short, simple sentences.
OK, I like Darrell Bock’s writing.
I will pick it up from the library this morning.
I am always open to ideas…I love learning…period!
I’ll send you an email once I ‘digest’ Darrell’s book.
Blessings,
Lisa