Ken Klein sent me a reply today asking me to apologize for my video commentary to his heretical teaching on original sin. The issue is that Ken denies the orthodox biblical doctrine of original sin, as the clips in the video evidence. He opposes the clear teaching of the Apostle Paul and I called him on it. Now he is threatening to sick his attorney’s on me. Ken’s posts are indented in block quotes, my responses are marked Logos:
—————————–
****Due the length of Ken’s post and the fact that he basically defends his use of elohim for a plurality of angelic beings, something I never disputed, it is linked here. ****
I am impressed to say for the sake of a laying a foundation: Jesus is my Lord and Savior. Jesus Christ is the common denominator that gives union to all believers even through their are differences of view points. Yes, I believe in the Trinity and I do embrace an insight on that subject.
It is unfortunate that you have not done due diligence on who I am before trying to assassinate my character. I would ask you to take down the video because it violates copyright laws, youtube policies, and includes slanderous accusations as to my motives and character.
I forgive you.
Ken
——————————-
Logos:
Sorry but this does not address the issue that sin entered the world through Adam, through one man not because we are fallen angels working off past rebellion. Paul makes that crystal clear. You don’t have a biblical leg to stand on.
——————————
Ken:
Expected a more thoughtful response from someone who calls themselves Logos.
———————————
Logos:
I was brief, I am really busy at the seminary this week. I don’t see how any of this addresses the real issue. I made it clear in the video: http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=206. I am familiar with the Divine Council concept and have studied the work of Dr Michael Heiser, so the idea of little ‘g’ gods is nothing new. That was never my problem with your theology. It’s that you blatanly mocked the doctrine of original sin Ken.
Further, the very temptation to “be like God, knowing good and evil” (Gen. 3:5) implies they did not know evil before they fell. Indeed, when they ate the forbidden fruit, “the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves” (3:7). According to the New Testament, by disobedience Adam and Eve became sinful (Rom. 5:12; 1 Tim. 2:14) and brought condemnation on themselves and their posterity: “The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men” (Rom. 5:18).3 Before this, they were flawless.
Source: Geisler, Norman L.: Systematic Theology, Volume Three: Sin, Salvation. Minneapolis, MN : Bethany House Publishers, 2004, S. 17
In your video it wasn’t Adam’s sin. No, you said that wasn’t fair of God. Your words Ken, “It’s not fair!” So you created this new revelation that it was our sin as as pre-incarnate angels? You are directly contradicting the Apostle Paul’s teaching. That’s what I was responding to Ken, it was clear enough. You do not have the authority to “correct” Paul because you don’t think it’s fair, Ken.
As far as taking down the video look into : Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as for commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship.
——————————
Ken:
Consider the very scripture you brought up to support your interpretive doctrine of “Original Sin”. If sin had to enter through Adam, then sin had to already be in existence, and by definition cannot be original. For something that doesn’t exist cannot enter.
“By the way it was Eve that sinned according to Timothy. So how did sin enter through Adam?”
We are not mocking the terrible nature of sin, but rather how the current and traditional Christian doctrine of sin is such a feeble representation of the magnitude of sin. And the way it is represented, makes God out to look like a cruel rather than loving God.
His very nature is maligned by the poorly interpreted doctrine that you hold to.
Ken
P.S. I’m very aware of “fair usage laws” as a film producer and you aren’t in alignment with those laws. If you still refuse to take it down then you will hear from my attorney.
————————————–
This was the point where I decided to take it public. I will stand on the Fair Use provision. Ken is threatening me with his attorney. I am clearly using clips of his video for criticism and commentary which is the very reason the fair use provision was enacted. You tube isn’t too sympathetic about false DMCA’s being filed. But what is really important is exposing Ken’s false teaching and bad theology.
_______________________
Ken: Consider the very scripture you brought up to support your interpretive doctrine of “Original Sin”. If sin had to enter through Adam, then sin had to already be in existence, and by definition cannot be original. For something that doesn’t exist cannot enter.
————————————
Logos:
This is really your argument? Sin is a metaphysical bogeyman that pre-existed Adam. Seriously? Sin means disobedience to God’s standard. It was original to humanity, Adam being the first human. Due to that, today we have an inherited sin nature but as Dr Geisler pointed out in the entry above there was a state of innocence in the original creation. This is not an interpretative matter Ken. You teach that all of humanity sinned as pre-incarnate angels and we are here on earth working off our error by our own righteous choice. That is wrong on many levels. It qualifies as heresy and it is the duty of apologists to refute such error. The Bible explicitly says that one transgression led to the condemnation for all men.
“Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. ” (Romans 5:18–19, ESV)
How do you explain this scripture Ken?
Ken: “By the way it was Eve that sinned according to Timothy. So how did sin enter through Adam?”
According to Timothy? Sorry Ken but the Apostle Paul (the same guy that wrote “by one man’s disobedience”) wrote 1st Timothy. I suppose you are referring to “For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. ” (1 Timothy 2:13–14, ESV) Paul’s point here is that Eve was deceived by the Serpent. Adam was not deceived, he knew better. Adam willfully chose to disobey. A man is the spiritual leader of his household by God’s design and when God inquired (Gen 3:9) he called Adam’s name. That’s the distinction Paul was making. This is really basic biblical theology Ken. You should know better.
Ken: We are not mocking the terrible nature of sin, but rather how the current and traditional Christian doctrine of sin is such a feeble representation of the magnitude of sin. And the way it is represented, makes God out to look like a cruel rather than loving God.
His very nature is maligned by the poorly interpreted doctrine that you hold to.
It’s not just the “current and traditional” doctrine. It’s the apostolic teaching. It’s at the core of Biblical Christianity. It’s a non negotiable. Ken, I believe God’s revealed truth in holy scripture, “as one trespass led to condemnation for all men,” it is not an interpretive matter. You either believe the Bible or you do not. It’s a matter of submission to Biblical authority. You said that you don’t think it was fair that you inherited Adam’s sin. Ken you are the one maligning God’s character with, “It’s not fair”. Actually, it’s really not fair that Jesus died for me. So I am glad it’s not fair. If it was really fair, I would go to hell. No Ken, I didn’t choose to work off my pre-incarnate angelic transgressions. God was merciful. Ken you simply reject the clear teaching of scripture and have manufactured a new revelation to “correct” it. It’s nothing new. So did Joseph Smith, Alice Bailey, Mary Baker Eddy, David Koresh and Muhammad. That’s what cults do Ken.
About Cris Putnam
All I can say is that there are so many people in a ministry that are placing themselves above what Gods word says ..God says it plain stop messing around and twisting it Mr. Klein needs to study up on what He is claiming to be true there is nothing wrong with calling someone out when they have mis- intrepid the word of God. I say Rebuke it and ask questions later. Mr. Klein I will be praying for the scales from your eyes to be removed! Your Sister In Christ Lee’sa
Cris,
Excellent job standing up to people like Kenney! We need more people like you to expose those who try to twist scripture in order to fit thier darkend way of thinking! What you are speaking is truth Ken has no case! He will be standing one day to give an account, in which he will be trying to plead his case, may God have mercy on his soul!
JESUS RULES! Stay strong brother! Jesus will not fail you brother!
He suing you? You should be asking for your money back from the DVD.
If he’s going to twist the Bible around like that, then it’s no surprise he’ll do the same with copyright laws.
Threatening to sue is the academic equivalent of crying to your mommy. Man up, Kenny!
Thanks guys! The Lord is good to encourage when I need it. I woke to find this verse in my email: 2 Tim 4:4
“For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”
Don’t give in, there is no copyright violation when you take a clip and comment on it in the way you have done. It’s called fair use.
Your brother in Christ.
Hi Cris,
Good to hear from you and thanks for the update on Ken. Unfortunately many people are listening to and believing his heresy. When you listen to Ken for a minute or two, you get the sense of his motivation… That he knows better than everyone else. It’s simply rooted in pride.
We’ll keep you and Ken in prayer.
Todd Tyszka
http://www.toddtyszka.com
Sin did in fact enter into the world THRU ADAM because God makes this very clear in the Book of Genesis. He stated to Adam, “…you listened to the voice of your wife…”. So being the family head (remember Eve was deceived not Adam. He willfully partook), it was Adam’s responsibility and accountability to his Maker not to his wife. Just as when your minor child does something wrong. If you are the parent of that child and you do not correct that child, you accept the accountability of the young childs actions. This is what happened to Adam.
The Bible is very clear about how sin entered the world. There are enough passages in Scripture to expose his heresy. Anyone who has studied the Bible can clearly this.
I thank God for you, Cris. There are too many people who like to twist Scripture, but he is actually denying and defying it! Don’t let his threats to sue bother you. You have in no way violated Fair Use. Sounds to me as though he is doing the equivelent of saying “I will get my big brother to beat you up if you don’t stop”.
It is all just a ploy because he knows that you have Scripture to back you up, while he is just pulling things out of the air to suit what his itching ears want to hear.
By the by, we do not ‘accept Jesus’, God says “I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy”.
He is wrong on all counts.
God bless you my brother,
~Juliet
From what you showed that Ken Klein said, and referenced, he is completely off base and certainly illiterate of the Bible’s teachings. Please, oh please, Lord let Ken sue so he can fund a real ministry, like Logos Apologia, by losing that case. It will bring glory to the name of Jesus Christ.
Stand firm and let us know if you need assistance in this suite. Some great resources, and I suggest we all support, can be found at effg.org and http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca/. They were instrumental in helping me fight Viacom, and I won.
Add this to the description to quite the oppressors “FAIR USE NOTICE: This post may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a “fair use” of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material in this post is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.”
Keep fighting for Christ. We are, after all, at war here.
Blessings.
I have never watched his stuff before, but I just watched about 5 minute of just one, and in that he claimed there can be no war in heaven. The bible is very clear on that issue. Satan gets cast out of heaven. All I can comment on is what I have seen myself. And it did not take long to see how he contradicts the word of God. Sorry to hear you are having problems with him. In the end, the truth will win. God bless you. Cheryl
I had never heard of this person. But once I saw what he was saying it only made me remember the phrase: “Truth is stranger than fiction”. This sort of thing makes me realize how deceivable we as people can be. How can people overlook the simple truth of the scriptures. Pride maybe? Good work Cris. Be wise as a serpent & harmless as a dove.
…And now that it is in the hands of Youtube, I believe they will take his side. Youtube is not fond of us, and will instinctively know that you are correct, hence, they will take his side.
You didn’t malign him in any way. He’s acting a bit childish, but youtube will take any copyright issue seriously. You two simply disagree (and he is clearly wrong).
These last days are marked by deception and those who love lies more than the truth.
There are false teachers,false messiah’s,false prophets to lead the lukewarm away because they recieve not the love of the truth.They are drawn like magnets to the deception,lies and darkness because the pride of their heart leads them away from the light.
Hey Brother. Hang tough. He’s WAAY over the top on this stuff and you’re right to correct him. His own words convict him, he repeatedly avoided responding to the pre-existing angels question. As a person who is often misquoted and vilified, I’m carefully about assuming the worst of a brother based on what someone else SAYS that he believes, but Ken spoke heresy himself in plain view of everyone.
One thing that I would add; sin didn’t start with Eve. Sin was already present when the snake twisted God’s words. How much earlier than that sin might have started, we don’t know for sure, but presumably either many had already been cast out of heaven or satan’s personal rebellion was already underway. But it’s clear that sin was TRANSMITTED, imputed, imparted, whatever to Eve, not created. The snake’s motivation to even open its mouth was sin (defiance, rebellion, death), regardless of what came out.
This isn’t something like whether to have communion once a week or once a quarter – or even something like when the rapture is. This is a fundamental reshaping of human nature, sin, the enemy and the justice and mercy of God. I don’t know how you could call what he is claiming a “secondary doctrine” on which we should show grace and be peacemakers.
Creating your own false Messiah, and telling biblical believers that they are worshipping the wrong one is nothing new. The Galatians were such a people . . . Paul’s epistle to the Galatians was quite blunt that if even an angel from heaven teaches a theology that isn’t in Christian doctrine, anyone who hears is to tell them where to go.
One of his big points is a primary derivation of most ‘cultic’ movements–salvation through works. As Paul told the Galatians, if you think that you are saved by works, you are fallen from Grace.
Logically, if you are fallen from grace, you have to be perfect, so “by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
I watched one of his videos and left a comment; the comment corrected the bible verses that he used (all out of context) and said that I don’t believe anyone who even casually looks up his references would believe his tripe.
Knowledge of the bible is the greatest weapon and shield against such people as him.
Hello Brother, thank you for defending the TRUTH against this religious heretic (in the mold of Joseph Smith, Alice Bailey, Mary Baker Eddy, David Koresh and Muhammad etc.) Nothing needs to be added to your statements. Ken is no match for you, Criss.
I have to agree with you Logos. Any time we disobey God’s word, we sin. God plainly told Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil or he would die. (Gen 2:16) Adam knew what God said but chose to disobey. It is interesting to note that sin and iniquity that are not repented of, follow the fathers blood line through generations. (Lev 26:40 and many others) The iniquity of the woman is apparently unable to pass the generational boundries since The Lord never asks future generations to repent for the iniquity of their mothers. Jesus was able to avoid any sin from His fathers bloodline because He was born of a virgin.
wow chris;
A few weeks into this website, and already your ruffling feathers and starting controversy.
Just like Paul. Next thing you know they’re going to be throwing little silver artemis statues at you!
Hey Tom! I am honored to see you here bro! I just hope those are nerf Artemis statues… yeah I know, no such luck. I received an exposition of Romans 5 from a member of Ken’s staff. It’s quite astonishing… can you say new age gobbilly gook? I’ll forward it you. Thanks for stopping by.
What a great comment, Tom!
That was really quite witty!
You are supposed to have freedom of speech and religion in this country.
I believe you should continue to stand against false teachers. Klein is a false teacher, teaching the doctrines of demons. All who live Godly will suffer persecution. May God richly bless you and help and pave the way for you to stand against such evil in the world, until Jesus comes. Shalom & HaHo !
M. Running Wolfe
Pre-incarnate angels working out our error here on earth is nothing but New Age gobbldygook, and these days, so much New Age nonsense is being mixed with little bits of actual Truth that many can easily be lead astray. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in Scripture that backs up Klein’s theory. It has more in common with the concepts of karma and reincarnation than anything found in the Bible. So, as is the case with so many modern-day, self-appointed teachers who are nothing more than wolves in sheep’s clothing and worthless shepherds, Mr. Klein’s teachings are nothing more than typical feel-good, New Age garbage that appeals to human pride and narcissism and looks good on the surface but is rife with corruption and contradicts Truth.
But the very term New Age is a misnomer, since it’s all recycled Babylonian paganism repackaged for our times. For truly, there is nothing new under the sun, and all the old lies have been dusted off and brought back out again. Knowing his time is short, Satan is throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks, and all the old lies are coming back with e vengeance in new guises — but they are easy to recognize and identify if you have the eyes to see. Measured against the Word, the lies are obvious and stand convicted like a naked robber caught red-handed. Mr. Klein is a false prophet, and let him sue ME for saying that, his suit will not stand in God’s courtroom.
As for sin entering the world through Adam, yes it did… but neither Adam nor Eve created sin. Sin was created by Satan, the moment he rebelled. The moment he looked at himself in the mirror and saw how beautiful he was and invented pride and arrogance and narcissism by glorifying himself and not the Creator who had made him beautiful. For the painting is not greater than the painter, nor the sculpture greater than the sculptor; yet Satan became enamored of his own beauty and failed to give credit to God who made him. And so he was cast out, and from that moment on, he has been behaving like a vengeful brat trying to mess everything up and contradict God in every way he can, and deceiving everyone who is not called with a veritable smorgasbord of lies for the foolish to pick and choose from. When he tempted Eve in the garden, he simply conscripted both her and Adam into the rebellion he himself already had started. He is the father of lies and of sin, and the author of everything that is antithetical to God, things which did not exist until he manufactured them by contradicting the very ways and nature of God.
So yes, sin entered the world through Adam, but it existed before that in heaven. It was removed from heaven along with its inventor, Satan, who then brought it to the world like a disease and contaminated that world using Adam as the vector.
WELL JUST TO LET YOU KNOW I DID NOT SEE THE VIDEO BUT WHAT I HAVE HEARD ABOUT KENNY IS NOT LOOKING GOOD BAD PRACTICE ON KENNY’S PART.
OVER AND OUT
you are both right – you guys are not on the same page.
GOD does not go against freewill – unless by your freewill you knowingly go against my freewill, if I can see that your are doing so and do not agree with what your doing and I call upon GOD for help, this done all by freewill.
I can’t pray for you about something that goes against your freewill.
If a person asked you to not do something and you continue, you fall under judgement, unless provoked by that person = Inflected Form(s): pro·voked; pro·vok·ing. Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French *provoker, provocher, from Latin provocare.
I have a neighbor who yells at me and calls me names and I yell back and tell him a thing or two and he calls the police and tells them Im harrassing him, the police come to me and tell me to stop. This is true in my life.
he is right about me harrassing him, he didn’t tell the police that he started it.
go back to the start and think things through
Your brother
P.s. sorry for my spelling and word order – I don’t know english very well.
Sorry Jeff but we can’t both be right. Ken says human beings are incarnated fallen angels working off their past angelic sins here on earth. Conversely, I believe the Bible which says God created man and man then made a bad choice. One of us is wrong…
All your videos have been an encouragement to my faith and walk in Christ, Chris :). I am proud you are not ashamed of defending the Christian faith. I also enjoy James White, he loves debating and discussing current “hot topics” in the Christian community and does a fine job at it as do you. You have been a blessing to me. We must keep open to discussion about new teachings, really, old teachings, resurfacing and causing many to question what they have always believed. Open discussion is healthy and necessary. There is nothing wrong with using our God-given “intelligence” freely, to “think” on these things. It is also a command of God in the Bible to train ourselves in these matters, so we can defend our Christian faith Scripturally (“give an answer” to others)! I look forward to more of your encouraging videos. Thank you for all the hard work you have put into them! :D.
Jude 1 “Contend for the faith.”
I want to thank Logos for all his posts in Youtube … Ken what are you afraid of? (Marjorie from Canada)
Je publie ce petit com simplement pour remercier l’auteur
I have watched the DVD, “Jerusalem and the Lost Temple of the Jews” that Ken a couple months back. Which is based off of Dr. Ernest Martin’s book, “The Temples that Jerusalem forgot.” The film heavily focused on Josephus, it gave very little about Avi Yonah’s background who did Herod’s Temple Model in Jerusalem, Israel, and it had very little Scripture as well. It has about three to four interviews, the main interview is a scenic route in Israel, and has Computer Graphic Animation about the Temple location being over the Gihon Springs. It also shows a Crescent Moon curve in on a specific area where they claim that Herod’s Temple was built.
With Klein’s New Age background which you found out about, this would be more like a Pagan Temple built or rebuilt, and not the Millennial Temple.
But, do they know many times in Israel’s Land has been changed and/or decimated in her history?
Whenever the Jewish (Israelites and Judah) people were captured in Babylon, Syria, and the Diaspora. The first time was about 50 years that the Jewish people were living outside of their Land when the people were in Syria and Babylon.
If the Jewish people weren’t living their, then Gentiles (strangers, foreigners) were placed in Israel and Judah by the ones who held them has prisoners. I think it might be 2 Kings 14-24, or do a Word Study for “Israel captured” and “Judah captured”.
The following was about 2000 years when Rome destroyed it. It became a desert after that happened and we simply don’t know the location of Solomon’s Temple and Herod’s Temple, but it’s really speculation and theory.
Thanks for your help! Ken didn’t read the Book of Colossians which counters Gnostics, which the New Age Movement came from. If he did, it would probably be the MIV (New Age) Bible, which I noticed in your other article about him.