By Cris Putnam
Christmas is certainly not pagan. Sure, Jesus’ birth was probably in the Fall rather than December but the exact day is uncertain. Even so, Christmas is the celebration of the savior’s birth because that is when most all Christian churches celebrate. While some customs have a distant pagan origin, the idea that Christmas trees are pagan is almost certainly false. Jeremiah 10 describes fashioning Canaanite idols from fresh cut wood and precious metals. It has nothing to do with Christmas trees. There have been a myriad of customs in different cultures using holly and evergreen but there is not a discernable evolution from paganism to today’s Christmas tree from the ancient world. Christianity relegated pagan belief to the cultural dustbin and tree customs were sporadic and divergent until after the reformation. The modern tree began in sixteenth century Germany. The best evidence points to Martin Luther for popularizing the candle lit evergreen tree.[i] As the reformation spread, so did Luther’s legacy. A popular artist, Carl Schwerdgeburth, painted a scene of Luther’s family around a candle-lit tree:
Painting source[ii]
This painting, depicting what oral tradition indicated happened in 1536, was engraved in a gift book titled Wheat Sheaf from 1853 that was published in Philadelphia. It also said that Luther was the first to light a tree with candles in order to illustrate the “light of God” to his children.
Because Luther was a great advocate of Christmas, the Christmas tree became a sign of Protestant solidarity and German nationalism. The Catholic majority of the lower Rhine discouraged the lighted tree as a Protestant custom. In the early nineteenth century, lit trees gained widespread acceptance across Germany.[iii] Most likely, the tradition came to the United States with Hessian troops during the American Revolution and/or the German immigrants to Pennsylvania and Ohio.
Many have pointed out the New England puritans did not recognize the holiday. However, their reasoning for disdain was not its alleged pagan origins but rather a form of strict biblicism that asserted that if a holiday is not in scripture it should not be celebrated. Not many folks still agree that conclusion is scriptural because it is inconsistent with our freedom of conscience in Christ (Col 2:16). Because we are not under Israelite ceremonial law, we are free to celebrate the birth of the savior any day we please! Finally, it is safe to say, that hardly anyone is thinking about pagan deities while performing Christmas traditions. Most of the conspiracy theories give paganism too much credit. Paganism did not infect Christianity but rather Christianity made paganism irrelevant.
[i] Karal Ann Marling, Merry Christmas! Celebrating America’s Greatest Holiday,( Boston: Harvard University Press, 2009), 176.
[iii]Johannes Marbach, The Holy Christmas season for meaning, history, customs and symbols (Stutgart: 1859), 416. http://books.google.com/books?id=FXhEAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA416#v=onepage&q&f=false
About Cris Putnam
(Paganism did not infect Christianity but rather Christianity made paganism irrelevant) Sounds like a contradiction in terms Mr Putman.C. Sorry to say, but Mystery Babylon is alive and well!
Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts.(see catholic encyclopaedia)
In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the ‘Saturnalia festival along with it’s fury tree’ hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. As a result, Christian leaders (Bishops and priests) succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.
Behold; the Mystery of iniquity worketh.. Christmas as a christian festival has its origin with papal Rome. Motherly traits are evident within the daughters.
Someone has a bug up his you-know-where.
Unkind.
Mr. Putnam’s blogsite specializes in topics that prompt debate and encourages the defense of the faith using logic, scholarship and scripture.
Jaz isn’t being scrooge. He is stating his opinion.
Thankyou watcher; I am not saying anything heretical Only provoking some thought for food.
Read it properly. It says, 2 Thus the Lord says: Do not learn the way of the Gentiles; Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven, For the Gentiles are dismayed at them, 3 For the customs of the peoples are futile; For one cuts a tree from the forest, The work of the hands of the workman, with the axe (the felling of the tree by a lumberjack, the work referring to the actual chopping down not carving into an idol image, the tree IS the idol awww shall now see), They decorate it (the tree, no mention of it being carved like else where in scripture mentioning the word carved idols) with silver and gold (we now use tinsel);They fasten it with nails and hammers (no roots since it was chopped down not dug up with roots intact so therefore fastening it is tomatoes it sturdy to stand) So that it will not topple, They are upright, like a palm tree (think of an idol like this? It means it is still a tree), now it goes on about false doctrine which is not obeying Fathers doctrine and doing manmade doctrine instead which God/Father finds abhorrent. Actually if you read chapter 7 it gives more. Something hit me the other day actually. Santa being as we all know an anagram of Satan what about clause? In legal terms a clause is like a loophole. Or something to hold over someone as part of a contract. Basically. More commonly known as small print.
Um watcher, Jaz isnt stating his opinion he is stating facts! Please enlighten yourself
Jaz, the dating comes from pious Jewish legend that states a prophet dies on his conception date. So, early Christians calculated his death to be on March 25 on the Roman calendar. This is why the Annunciation is celebrated that day, with the celebration of the Annunciation predating Christmas. If you go forward nine months from March 25 you get December 25. Voila, the date of Christmas without pagan influence.
As a side note, as a classics student I have never heard of Saturnalia having a fury tree. It involved the reversal of roles, so masters served their slaves a lavish meal and acted as slaves. Plus the Saturnalia was held December 17, not on the 25.
Pax,
Josh.
Josh, you can find answers about Saternalia and tree decoration here.(www.khouse.org/enews_article/2010/1708/print/)
JAZ and ALI,
I’ve studied and found what you said the same to be true. The article mentions something about what’s “in our hearts/minds” is what matters now. Hmmm… That doesn’t prove true in the Bible. Cain’s “heart” meant well and G-d still wasn’t pleased with his offering to Him. You see, he didn’t worship YHVH the way he was supposed to. It doesn’t matter what WE think it means, it only matters what YHVH says it matters. After all, HE is the one being worshipped.
The bible deprives that during Yeshua’s reign that the fir trees will cry out and rejoice for there will be none to cut them down. Christmas will be cancelled during that reign. Hmmm…
Maybe it matters to G-d more than we realize.
Josh it has been scientifically proven that Jesus was most certainly not born in Decemeber. He was born in October
Some good points made on both sides.
Now concerning the “Christmas” tree and associating it as an idol…if one sees it that way, then it is best to not have a tree. But keep in mind where Paul said for those that wish to keep the rulebook / as though law, is your master, than hear Gal 5:12, that is “12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.” (context is that some preached you can not worship and serve God fully unless circumcised.)
[Keep in mind one may need to go all the way into other areas of their life and cut things out. For instance. having a cake with birthday candles has pagan origins, so one would need to cut that out too!)
Santa aside, the tree can for some is reminder of whom the tree of life and giver really is. He whom bore our sins on that tree. And that He is the light of the world. Hmmm…We do not hear anyone “knocking” down candy canes on trees because it is said to have their origin symbolizing Christ blood shed and so forth.
We need to look at what we are preaching… Is it preaching the true gospel of freedom?
ps Jaz, I am not coming up against you. I do believe our society including Christians enslaves itself to looking much like the world. Perhaps the Lord would have you cut certain things out, and if you do, amen to that. Thing is, I have seen others take the road where they take a path of letting everyone know what they removed and why, and as time goes on, I have seen it where they become proud/prideful of this. And the grace aspect of Jesus Christ, that need for ongoing relationship slips away. And they get bewitched (Gal 3). It is not that they never knew Christ, rather, they lose their first love. God bless. [ronnie_obrien@hotmail.com]
It is by the grace of God that I have come to understand what is the ‘Mystery of Lawlessness’
In a nut shell; It is when Apostolically founded Christian truths is super-seated by falsehood and error (Lies) whilst retaining a Christian appearance.
This Mystery of Lawlessness was at work in the Days of the Apostles and He tells us that prior to the return of the Lord it will manifest in a fully blown Apostasy 2Thes2:3-8
It is obvious from the standpoint of Scripture that The Spiritual force at work to bring forth this Apostasy is none other than the seductress Mystery Babylon the Great Whore.
The reason I do not celebrate Christmas as such, is not to earn Browny points with God and It has nothing to do with an Obsolete OT Law.It is a matter of Faith and principle in honouring a Holy God who detests the heathen practices of the Nations.
God’s people are called to come out of Babylon and be separate. as I see it ‘Christmas has the covering of Mystery Babylon’ It is very evident.
God sees it for what it is and I thank Him that He has opened my eyes to it.
I am not here boasting about how good I am. I am sharing that which I have come to understand..
The prideful person is the one who refuses to admit that christmas has its roots in the Roman Saturnalia festival 17-25Dec, and that it was The Roman church via Papal edict that called it Christmas..
I am not condemning anyone who wishes to celebrate the birth of Jesus on the 25th Dec. I just question the fact as to why none here are willing to agree with the historical truth.
Again Jaz, sorry, but Saturnalia was originally one day, December 17, but later expanded to run from December 17-23. There is no trappings of Babylon on the Christmas tree, nor the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. The full title of the feast is the Nativity of our Lord, Christmas is just a term that the common folk called it, the Mass of Christ, or Christmas.
Pax,
Josh
Josh, My research including the Catholic encyclopaedia tell me otherwise.
It is obvious that you are not able or willing to make the connection. Hence the Mystery that it is.
The common people called it the mass of Christ. A thoroughly Catholic term is it not.
The common people do nothing without the approval of the Clergy. you should know that!
May be you could tell us what is the ‘Mystery of Lawlessness’ of which Apostle Paul speaks.
Who is the lawless One? Ans: The one who does as he wills by ‘Bulls and edicts’ usurping the authority of Christ Jesus.
Concerning this matter, it was (Pope Julius I) in his attempt to convert the heathen Roman populous to Catholicism.
My paraphrase: (You can enter the church and still keep your festivities, but it shall be called The mass of christ to celebrate Jesus’ nativity)
You cannot ignore The Historical facts. They are recorded in Catholic History.
Jaz, yes, the common people called it Christmas, it comes from Middle English, including some of the clergy, who, prior to reforms where just as much common people in England (usually only bishops would be highly educated). Also, you cannot draw conclusions based on similar sounding language in your paraphrase (if you could give a copy of what was actually said I would appreciate that). Only in English is the festival called “Christmas.” In French it is Noël (from a Latin root having to do with birth), in German Weihnachten (hallowed night), in Greek Χριστούγεννα (birth of Christ), in Italian Natale (again, birth), and in Latin Natalem Christi (birth of Christ), etc, etc. Also, Mass is just the name of the service in the Western Rite, just like it is called liturgia (transliterated) in the Byzantine rite.
If you could support your paraphrase, as I cannot find any thing like it anywhere. I am not ignoring historical facts, but studying them, and weighing the sources.
Pax,
Josh
Josh I believe Saturnalia was longer then one day. that it was in fact December 20-22, during the winter solstice. Which pagans celebrated as YULE
Jaz you are right on, I am not sure if anyone has mentioned it but the Christmas tree was not even a tradition American Christians began practicing until around the turn of the 20th century. it has nothing to do with Luther, it has to do with the evergreen tree and nimrod. Christmas=Christ Mass, in all pagan cultures they worshiped the sun and the sun was said to be reborn around the winter solstice and the shortest day of the year. the Roman church just adopted this and called it Christian.
What is the Christmas Tree All About?
If Christmas came from the Roman Catholics and they got it from paganism, where then did the pagans get it? What was the origin of the Christmas tree? Would you believe its roots begin just after the flood?
Nimrod, the grandson of Ham and the great‑ grandson of Noah, was the real founder of the Babylonian system that has gripped the earth ever since. It was a system of organized competition, of man‑ruled governments and empires, based on the competitive and profit‑making economic system.
Ancient writings speak of this man, Nimrod, who started a great, organized world apostasy against God, which continues to dominate the world to this day. In Genesis 10:8‑9, the Hebrew word translated “mighty” is GIBBOR, which means “tyrant” over the people. The Hebrew word translated “before” in verse nine is PANIYAM, which actually means “against.” When properly translated, these verses clearly reveal that Nimrod was a “tyrant against God, ruling over the people.”
He was so wicked, it is said, that he married his own mother, Semiramis. After Nimrod was killed, his mother‑wife propagated the doctrine of the survival of Nimrod as a spirit‑being. She claimed a full grown evergreen tree sprang over night from a dead tree stump which symbolized the springing forth into new life of the dead Nimrod. On each anniversary of his birth, she claimed Nimrod would visit the evergreen and leave gifts upon it. December 25th was the supposed birthday of Nimrod. This is the real origin of the Christmas tree!
Even in our current era of open and graphic talk about sex, it is surprising to learn that the male reproductive organ was of tremendous importance in the Mystery Religions representing, no doubt, power and fertility. Trees were common phallic symbols connected with the sun god. Ball ornaments, representing the womb as well as the sun and moon, were hung all around the phallus. (Many sources, from which we will spare you, actually boast as they expound on the details concerning these symbolic representations which they practiced in their religious beliefs!) Today, families gather together in breathless anticipation and delight when the obelisk (tree‑top ornament) is placed in its position of honor. When you learn that it represents the sexual union between the Babylonian mother-goddess and her sun‑god, son/husband, it becomes an object of disgust. (The Encyclopedia Britannica, 14th edition, 1973.)
When we learn the stark reality concerning the origin of the Christmas tree, we must squarely face and admit to ourselves that we must not take part in this tradition. Those who set up and adorn a Christmas tree, though they may have the best of intentions and most wonderful feelings, they are actually bowing down and worshipping Satan at the foot of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil!
Hear what God says in Deuteronomy 12:30‑31:
“Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto. the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which He hateth, have they done unto their gods.”
Yet, even with that warning it seems the children of Israel carried the worship of the tree with them out of Egypt. God specifically warned them again in Jeremiah 10:2‑4:
“Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen … For the customs of the people are vain (futile!): for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.”
Did you see that? Not only is God condemning participation in any pagan custom and in particular this tree worship.‑ just in case you’ve been under the misconception that anything you choose to dedicate to God is acceptable to him ‑ He is telling you that this kind of worship is vain, futile, useless! And He Hates It!
Now we can see how it stands to reason that God, pronounced the destruction of “Babylon the Great,” meaning the whole world system at the end of this age. He inspired the Apostle John to write: “Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen. . .”(Revelation 18:2)
Paganism is powerless to a Christian. I can walk in a Chinese restaurant and feel no pull to worship the images around me. I can wear shoes made by unbelievers and drink juice made by the same.
People can bow down and worship porky pig and I will never feel the pull toward Porky Pigism. Everywhere there is anti God. The bridges we drive on and the coffee made for us at Starbucks. There is no escape. The separation comes in our hearts. We look at all of the make believe Gods as cultural Bugs Bunnies. If we truly separated ourselves we would be naked and starving standing in a ditch – but watch out! A scientologist may have dug where you are standing.
Jesus tells that his disciples are in the world but not of it. such is separation! It is not that we do not feed or clothe ourselves.. regardless the source.
I can eat meat sacrificed to Idols but If I am aware that it is so , I can choose not eat. This Christmas issue is no different. we know its origin and should honour God by touching not the unclean thing.. This is no different to the Marian deception and any other babylonian invention.
Ali, well stated! What clause? Does Satan gain legal ground when we disobey the LORD? What of David and Bathsheba? Their son died as a result of sin. All things are in YAHWEYs hands. HE is the righteous judge. Where is the fear?
“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” — Colossians 2:8
This is just one more hobby horse that people like to beat, but the gospel is more than just hobby horses.
Romans 14:5 “One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.”
Romans 14:23 “But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.”
I don’t understand how anyone can read these scriptures and not understand that our relationship with Christ isn’t about festivals, or rituals or pages long doctrinal statements that people will sever relationships over due to disagreement over minute beliefs. Why do you suppose so many dying souls find this representation of Christianity repulsive?
Chris is not saying that anyone should or should not celebrate Christmas.
Jim; The issue is that the christmas tree in origin is pagan as is December 25th. to christianise it does not erase the reality. It is like dressing the Devil with a Jesus suit.
Why then celebrate the birth of Christ based upon a Lie?
As I see it, the 4th century churchmen flung wide open the doors of Mystery Babylon for all to enter in, rather than issuing the call to ‘come out of her’.
The problem today with many many Christians is that they have been taught that Mystery Babylon pertains to the end-Time Tribulation period. Futurism is to blame for this.
The truth is, she has always been there as Satan’s whore in opposition to the Bride luring the saints.
jaz its less than convincing because none is thinking about babylon or paganism in associateion with the holiday. The solstice is an astronomical alignment that all culture realize is significant in time keeping means that all cultures would have a holiday but for completely unrelated reasons. To suggest your claim you have to start by showing a chain of evidence that connects these cultures to each other. I have not seen it done, so why should I believe it? Trees are common everywhere and people do stuff with them for different reasons.
Mr Putman please see this source (www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm)
Ok but that link shows various arguments about the date of Christ’s birth in various areas, it does not show a chain from paganism to Christian customs. It does not even mention Christmas trees which are the subject of my post, so I am not sure why you think it helps?
Jaz; are you a Jehovah’s Witness? Sounds like a page out of their books. Either that, or a conspiracy theorist. It’s one thing to refuse to celebrate Christmas for Christian conscience issues, entirely another to straw-man people by bringing in “Mystery Babylon.”
What exactly is your exegetical principle for justifying this? Your eschatology? And what holidays do you celebrate that are not in Scripture if you are not a JW or a Reformed Baptist regulative principle adherent.
TC, i am not Jw, I am None denominational.
I value and celebrate the Lord’s supper as instructed by the lord and His Apostles and it does not have to coincide with any particular feast, festival or day.
I value the historical protestant view, but I am not in full agreement with it all, as there is still many elementary principles not in accord with the Word of God.
That which Protestantism begun it never completed. The majorities current ecumenical fervour is indicative of this truth.
There is no straw-manning of anybody. I am just stating the facts from a historical perspective, It is what I have come to understand from prayer and study.
I do not judge any for their celebration of Christmas. I choose not to for the reasons I have stated above. The Apostles never celebrated this which Rome calls ‘the first advent’ and they certainly did not whitewash any pagan festival in order to build numbers.
One cannot get any exegetical truth from a Catholic or Vatican sponsored source. They have an unspoken agenda. Why do we celebrate Christ’s birth period? Christ came into the world as a man for a specific purpose that had to be accomplished in flesh. He is, in reality the Alpha and the Omega, an eternal being who never had a birth. His walk on earth for His purposes had to include a human birth because of the form He had to take while on this earth to fulfill scripture. Jesus always was with no birth in reality. Why do we celebrate festivals other than what was sanctioned in the Bible? Those the Jesus Himself participated in including that of the Sabbath? We were told not to follow the traditions of men. Is that not clear enough? Sorry I have not cited scripture here but I think all of us know there are scriptural citations that back up the foregoing.
I have more of a problem of placing an angel on top the tree than any perceived or actual connection to paganism.
To not celebrate Christmas because your heart feels it is defaming Christ, then you must NOT celebrate it. However, that does not make the inverse true. Celebrating Christmas when your heart yearns for Christ does not put your salvation in jeopardy
Watcher; Does not the angel crown the Tree!
A lighted tree is an allurement, would you not agree
Who then is the angel of light?
Yes, Jaz. I can see your point and I understand where your discomfort is. So my point is, in light of that, it is absolutely crucial for you not to celebrate Christmas. To do so, would be am offense to your sensibilities and how your heart yearns for Christ.
And that is the greater issue. This is a heart issue. People’s faith looks differently and people express it differently, but the crucial part is how your heart is aligned. It’s a matter your will, which reflects your heart.
Jesus ain’t afraid of a tree. But if you believe a tree is pagan and you willingly celebrate it anyway, then who/what are you really worshipping. The greater threat is idolotry. If someone takes away your tree will you be crushed. If so, then your symbol takes the place of your true allegiance for Christ.
Regarding the angel on top. I am deathly afraid of a coming call for angel worship. There is a lot of texts that point to this kind of spiritual substitution for Christ in the end times. The entire text of the Book of Enoch for one. The devils text in my opinion.
Revelation 19: 10 When I heard this, I fell at his feet to worship him.
But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I serve God, just as you do. I am God’s servant, just like other believers who hold firmly to what Jesus has taught. Worship God! What Jesus taught is the very heart of prophecy.”
I agree not many are thinking of Pagan influences for the most part, but some neo-pagans do use a tree for their Winter Solstice (there are lots of names). Most secular people put up the tree for present reasons.
Is it a matter of what we think or of what God says….
What do the Bibles tells about this? all i know is that JESUS our savior is born.
Who made the tree, Jesus or Lucifer?
Who made the light, Jesus of Lucifer?
There is a story in the Talmud of Adam fasting and praying as the days got darker because he thought that the curse that he had brought down on himself had caused the sun to quit shining and would bring immediate death to the whole world. When the days began to grow lighter, he realized that this was a natural progression of the seasons and he celebrated with worship and praise to God! So, who’s idea was Chanukah or Christmas?
It was Adam’s! And the usurper usurped it. It is natural that God’s people reclaim it as a time of worship and celebration for the light that comes after the darkness.
RFK; The Talmud is not a christian source of truth it is jewish Kabala. There is nothing to reclaim, the world and the things of the world passes away. We do not need trees or seasons to worship God, True worship is in spirit and in Truth.
I am not saying that christians worship the christmas tree, I am only stressing that the source is in pagan Idolatry.
we are not to learn the way of the nations Jeremiah10:2
we are to beware of delusional customs Jeremiah10:3,4
why not acknowledge that the decorating of a tree at a particular season is a heathen practice and that tagging Jesus to it does not make it Holy.
If we do not need seasons to worship God, why did God set seasons of worship? And if the times and seasons don’t matter, why does Satan try to change them?
I don’t believe all the stories in the Talmud, but I believe this one. It makes sense. Pattern is prophecy – God creates and man responds to that creation. Satan only corrupts, deceives and twists. So, it doesn’t hold true that Satan would have created a mid-winter festival. It makes sense that he seized it and twisted it. The Patriarchs probably did celebrate and worship at this time. Can I prove that? No, not directly, but neither can you disprove it. So, we’re back to Romans 14:3 and Col. 2:16.
When we give glory to the One who created the fragrant pine that stays green throughout the coldest winter and stands as a beacon of hope, and we give thanks to the One who created light in the darkest of days, we honor our maker and our Messiah. We are not imitating the ungodly or entering into delusional customs if we keep this in mind.
The application of Col2:16 is that these things are no longer valid forms of worship. Read on to verse 23.
The context implies that it is those who keep certain ‘food practices, festivals,new moons or Sabbat’ that are judgmental of those having been set free from these things in Christ.
Furthermore; Col2:15 emphatically relates such elementary things to the “Rulers & authorities over which Christ Triumphed”
we are not to live in the shadows of Mt Sinai But in the brightness of the Jerusalem above.
My friend, you have forgotten that “…the substance belongs to Christ…” The snow, the trees, the light, the holly, the mistletoe, the gifts, the logs and fires and need for cheer and human contact. And Nicholaus of Myra was a real man and a real Christian. These things all belonged to Christ long before the devil got his hands on them and twisted their meaning – all the way back to Adam. We should not glorify the devil by allowing him to keep them.
Martin Luther took a tree and used it as a focal point for a lesson: a lesson of beauty and gratitude to our Creator and His triune nature. Using His creation as a pointer to Him (not worshiping the creation but the Creator) IS a valid form of worship.
Well said.
Hello Rose; I suppose that The Catholic church was reclaiming Christmas for Christ when she adopted Saturnalia among her many feasts.
I am not Catholic and I don’t claim to speak for the Catholic Church. And, when we observe Christmas, we do not celebrate a mass with a “transubstantiated” wafer or sing homage to the Queen of Heaven.
No, we place the creche under the tree – a picture of the triune Godhead and the incarnate savior, born lowly and vulnerable, who was brought to a gruesome death on a tree for the salvation of mankind. We celebrate communion, sing hymns, and shed tears of gratitude for God’s provision and guidance in the last year and praise Him for the provision to come in the New Year.
5 qOne person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. rEach one should be fully convinced in his own mind. Rom. 14:5
“Finally, it is safe to say, that hardly anyone is thinking about pagan deities while performing Christmas traditions. Most of the conspiracy theories give paganism too much credit. Paganism did not infect Christianity but rather Christianity made paganism irrelevant.” Cris Putnam
Rose, so let me get this straight. Because your ‘church’ does things a little differently, that doesn’t mean that you are in ‘agreement’ with the RCC?
And concerning the quote: Did Christianity make paganism irrelevant? Because it’s pretty relevant to pagans.
Hi, John B.
Some Historical facts:
In the early years of Christianity, (passover) was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated.
In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday.
Unfortunately, the Bible does not mention date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order to deny the legitimacy of the celebration).
Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?),
‘Pope Julius I’ chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. First called the Feast of the Nativity, the custom spread to Egypt by 432 and to England by the end of the sixth century. By the end of the eighth century, the celebration of Christmas had spread all the way to Scandinavia.
The christmas tree is a stumbling block in the House of the Lord. It’s roots go down to Sheol.
Put a tree from some ancient tradition in a date 25th Dec that is not Jesus’ birthday and give presents to each other.
Happy Saturnalia everybody.
Oh my, my, my! These comments reminded me of the years and years of my own personal journey through the Christmas season. I debated, speculated, studied, pondered, eliminated….ad nauseum….out of my absolute passionate love for Jesus and wanting to “get it right” biblically. End result was a lot of Scriptures, quotes and info from ages past, concerns about angel and pagan worship, a very narrow and limited vision in life, with little joy left. In the end I discovered afresh the reason for the season. Smile! As I matured in Christ and grew in wisdom and understanding, I came into a much greater freedom. The biblical perspective I took was Luke 6:44. Smile! When I look at the angel on top of my tree I see Luke 2:10. Next year when I put the star on I see Matt 2:10. When I turn on the Christmas lights I see John 1:9. When I look at the gifts I see James 1:17. When I even think about the tree itself, when I get it out of the box what will come to mind immediately is Ezekiel 17:24 or Rev 2:7. What am I saying? Once I understood why “Christmas” for me, the joy was indescribable as I am reminded by its signs in my home that I have a lot to celebrate. I’ve broken out into 1Peter 1:8 in a much greater capacity in this season, realising that the Kingdom of God in which I live is righteous, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. It was all about the heart for me!
Compromise is always the demise of the so-called wise!
Come-on Cyberpriest. You can’t possibly believe that this is a salvation issue. Do you feel DPs soul is at risk here? Clearly he has a mind for Christ, no matter if Christmas has been co-opted or not.
Faith in Jesus is paramount. It’s as I stated before and DP illustrates here. It’s a matter of the heart and where your allegiance lies.
hopeful_watcher… It is not a salvation Issue.
I am only commenting from DP’s stand point on him having thoroughly investigated the matter to get it right only to capitulate.
surely any thorough study to the extent DP has partaken cannot but bring conviction of the truth that the Christian Christmas is the pagan saturnalia to the date.
He further states that it is his ‘maturity and wisdom’ that has brought to him the understanding that his joy of Christmas is indescribable attributed by the signs decorating the Tree.
I see that as compromising the Truth for a Lie.
The fact is, as some have pointed out, it was a papal edict that christianised saturnalia. There is no Apostolic foundation whatsoever, unless one believes in papal Apostolic succession which I don’t.
The reluctance to admit the Truth is a demise to ones faith.
Smile! Be encouraged and keep going in your reflections. I did, and eventually walked out into full freedom in Christ! My ornaments a source of joy….nah! Compromise, nah! Celebrating Jesus, yeah!
I too bristled at the maturity comment, but didn’t let it get to me.
What I find in my “old age” and supposed maturity is that EVERYTHING outside of Jesus is insufficient. Jesus, no more, no less. All traditions and institutions have been weighed and found wanting.
Any joy that can be squeezed from this world is only because we are viewing it from the vantage point of already being saved through Christ. No sparkly Christmas lights, no egg nog, no sung carole or present given in love will pull a lukewarm Christian from his delusion that he will escape destruction unless they lay down their life for Christ.
But if you have laid down your life for Jesus, then that nog tastes a little sweeter, those sparkly lights marvel the eyes a bit more and those carols sound like angels singing “worthy is the lamb”.
Even in the valley of the shadow of death we shall Macarana down the path. People will see our boldness and think us mad. How else could David face Goliath without that knowledge that there is more to life than just life.
Dear Hopeful,
Sometimes I wonder if things like xmas ‘are’ a salvation issue. It is easy to confuse the soul with the spirit. We are to be lead by the Spirit in all things. Our ‘soul’ does tend to get in the way as we walk with the LORD.
My question would be, “Can” you lay xmas down? Can you just ‘not’ celebrate it? Meaning, if for some reason, you just ‘cannot/will not’ not celebrate it, than it has become an idol! We’ve all heard this excuse for all manner of vices: “I can, I just don’t want to’. Truly stated. One just doesn’t WANT to.
“How” does JESUS want to be worshiped? Do we bother to ask HIM? HE Is the King after all. Through song? Through the heart? Through obedience? If we can, lets look at Abraham. “Give Me your only son”. Obey. Now. Give to Me that which you value the most. That will cost you the most. Abraham obeyed and that was true worship.
Ex-xmas celebrators, are not un-celebratory people. Quite the contrary! There is a deep, abiding constant celebration that is on going in the heart of the believer. They are not caught up in the childish things of the world.
True that evil things wax worse as time goes on.
I was raised RCC and celebrated many midnight mass, morning mass and then xmas. We were all pretty poor, so no expectations of expensive gifts. Yes, it was a nice time to gather together. Two of my brothers who are atheists (which I hate that term as it is not accurate). They do not believe in YAHWEY. But they celebrate xmas with vigor! They will celebrate the “birth of the Savior” and with the same mouth spew out so much hatred towards Him.
As many of you that have studied the Scriptures say there is no connection with trees, really surprises me. What of all the verses concerning the groves that were planted just for the use of idol worship?
2 Kings 17:10 And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree: 18 And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger:
Exodus 34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
There are a ton more Bible references on this tree/baby sacrifce, whoring, worship.
Not to be rude or funny here, but have you noticed how popular pole dancing has become? It’s an exercise, it’s a sport, and yes it is a strip bar dance too. By why a pole and what does it represent? YAHWEY does not want HIS people to be ignorant.
I’ll end with my first question. Can you lay it down? It not why?
Amen to the acknowledgment that there is grave danger in the idolotry of Christmas.
The Lord asks us to lay down many things. If Christmas was one of them, would we even think twice.
From a pragmatic standpoint, consider this. During the holiday season may be the only time that some people are even open to hearing about Christ. Rather than trying to get well meaning Christians to give up some tradition, how about we find hopelessly lost non believers who are going through the motions of Christmas and give them reason to believe?
Dear Hopeful,
While I’ve heard that argument before, I cannot stand on it as even “Christians” are the ones who demand that they be allowed to celebrate xmas. They may say they are doing it for the benefit of others, but it is selfishness really.
DP, I read your comments a couple of months ago and they were so uplifting, I had to search for them again to reread. This last Christmas, two of my friends ousted me from their fellowship because I would not repent of celebrating the birth of Messiah. Nothing I could say would penetrate their hate and condemnation. In fact, they didn’t even tell me in person (we studied the bible together), they sent me a 6 page letter with 15 pages of my emails attached. My emails explained the reason for celebration. The biblical freedom we have to celebrate and the unprecedented account of that celebratory night in scripture. Seems only a few were invited then and it may end up being the same in this generation.
Anyway, they wrote all over my emails words like “blasphemy” when I tried to explain. These same ladies celebrate Thanksgiving, mind you, a totally man centered event in history. But the hypocrisy of their words never shed any light on the argument.
I’ve watched a youtube video recently of a man who has a similar story as yours. He jumped on the bandwagon to condemn Christmas and has now come back around to see his error. I wish their were other youtube videos with similar testimonies. Maybe you could make one???
Be encouraged my brother, that your story has touched a heart and probably will touch many more. “I bring you good tidings of great joy that will be unto all men, for unto is BORN, in the city of David, Christ the Savior”. Sounds awfully like they expected the celebration to continue for generations to me………………..
Oh dear! My comments were directed to no one in particular, nor meant to cause bristling, but a simple reflection of my own journey as I remembered my struggle. As mentioned, overwhelming joy came when I remembered the “why”…… Jesus. It’s Jesus plus zero. Thank you Chris for this topic which holds within it a myriad of responses and debates. Thank you for challenging us all to reflect on the “why” we do what we do. Good one!
hopeful_watcher…
Dear Friend; There is a lot to be said about the heart of a man.
We know not if the heart of a man is born again or not.
“The heart is desperately wicked”/ & Deceit is in the heart of those who devise evil. Proverbs12:20
The Lord judges the intentions of the heart all we have as the means of discernment is the fruit thereof. Blessings my friend.
As I see it, Christmas is the fruit of death In accord with the spirit of the world.
I’ll second that, well said.
Amen.
Merry Happy
Christ Christ
Mass Death
Happy Death of the Christ!
The Mass is (according to the RCC and I do speak from experience and knowledge) the unbloody sacrifice of Christ, represented (read Re-presented to you via the priest) in the elements of bread and wine. Stated and claimed He is mysteriously dying over and over again for you and me. They quote Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
The RCC maintains that JESUS just as HE is perpetually a priest, interceding for us, HE is also perpetually dying. Is that correct or not?
If not, then you who do as your Mother the RCC, are incorrect also (and your imitation of the RCC is your signature that you are in agreement with her as xmas did not originate with…reformed Baptists) If you would do as your Mother, than I say, stop the heavy petting and go all the way!
Even PM Netanyahu wishes his Christian brothers a Happy Death of the Christ and why wouldn’t he? Hmmm???
Ha! The Christmas tree has been an excellent teaching device from the beginning because it not only illustrates the light of God shining in the darkness, it shows how inflammatory this idea is. Putting lit candles on an evergreen whose tar burns like gasoline, then putting the whole thing on a wooden table in a wooden house. . . Well, it by its very nature shows how keenly it needs to be watched. Like the pillar in the wilderness, it has a life of its own that can dramatically change one’s life, especially if one is not paying proper attention.
Don’t watch it and it becomes the burning bush 😉
Exactly! A symbol of the unquenchable, everlasting, consuming fire – “For our God is a consuming fire.” Hebrews 12:29.
It was a stroke of brilliance on Martin Luther’s part, or Divine inspiration. I suspect the latter.
Folks; too much Conjunction & speculation in the face of reality.
If Pope Julius1 had not open the church doors to the heathen festival, there would be no such thing as christmas celebrations among the protestants. One has to see the spiritual connection.
It is not the worldly heathens who mix into a Christian festival, It is Christians that mix Christ into the old pagan festival,
The pope by his action created what we see as Christmas today!
To quote the words of Fred below (Just look at the fruits (not the fleshly pleasure) of the Christmas holiday season. The fruits of Christmas are greed, debt, stress, gluttony etc.)
Let us remember that there was no such thing as Christmas celebrated by the Apostles of the Lord, until such time as the unholy alliance took place by decree of the one who does as he wills.
Why don’t you folks acknowledge this fact?
My comment was more or less tongue in cheek, but since you want to take this analysis of Christmas to reality, then don’t stop there and take it to its full logical conclusion.
Satan is prince of this world. You are immersed in the world. If you think you can insulate yourself from its influence by avoiding some pagan connections you acknowledge, you are fooling yourself.
We in the world, But not of the world.
I am not defending Christmas. If you don’t want to celebrate, I don’t think less of you nor do I believe it gains or diminishes your status with the Lord. But know this, we need Christ to overcome the world. It can’t be done on our own. Avoiding Pagan influences may keep you from stumbling, but its not enough. It never will be enough.
And while we are having a reality check, none can argue that Christmas has become idolotrous in our consumer, must have it, obligated to give it society. So whether its pagan or not, it hasn’t gotten much better.
Chris,
You know better. The winter Christmas festival (tree included) is rooted in pagan worship. What’s up?
Just look at the fruits (not the fleshly pleasure) of the Christmas holiday season. The fruits of Christmas are greed, debt, stress, gluttony etc.
You know a tree by it’s fruit.
Fred
This is a great point, Fred. I totally agree with you about the fruits.
Chris, I am so surprised you think this way, I thought you would have definitely been against Christmas and it’s pagan themes.
Though, here’s the part of Jeremiah 10 I like the best. 🙂 What a soveriegn, merciful, graceful, loving God. So much love. All encompassing powerful Father we love you, we praise you, we worship you! In and through your blessed and holy son Christ Yeshua!
It’s hard for one to pay much thought to a dead tree when they are gazing upon the living tree, the living water, the holy Son of God.
10:6 There is none like you, O LORD; you are great, and your name is great in might.
10:7 Who would not fear you, O King of the nations? For this is your due; for among all the wise ones of the nations and in all their kingdoms there is none like you.
10:8 They are both stupid and foolish; the instruction of idols is but wood!
10:9 Beaten silver is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz. They are the work of the craftsman and of the hands of the goldsmith; their clothing is violet and purple; they are all the work of skilled men.
10:10 But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation.
10:11 Thus shall you say to them: “The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens.”
10:12 It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
10:13 When he utters his voice, there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightning for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
Alexander Hislop in his excellent book “The Two Babylons” reveals the pagan origins of the Christmas tree. It has from antiquity been a symbol of Nimrod/Osiris/Satan cut down only to be re-born in glory. Following is an excerpt from Hislop’s book.
—
The candles, in some parts of England, lighted on Christmas-eve, and used so long as the festive season lasts, were equally lighted by the Pagans on the eve of the festival of the Babylonian god, to do honour to him: for it was one of the distinguishing peculiarities of his worship to have lighted wax-candles on his altars. The Christmas tree, now so common among us, was equally common in Pagan Rome and Pagan Egypt. In Egypt that tree was the palm-tree; in Rome it was the fir; the palm-tree denoting the Pagan Messiah, as Baal-Tamar, the fir referring to him as Baal-Berith. The mother of Adonis, the Sun-God and great mediatorial divinity, was mystically said to have been changed into a tree, and when in that state to have brought forth her divine son. If the mother was a tree, the son must have been recognised as the “Man the branch.” And this entirely accounts for the putting of the Yule Log into the fire on Christmas-eve, and the appearance of the Christmas-tree the next morning. As Zero-Ashta, “The seed of the woman,” which name also signified Ignigena, or “born of the fire,” he has to enter the fire on “Mother-night,” that he may be born the next day out of it , as the “Branch of God,” or the Tree that brings all divine gifts to men. But why, it may be asked, does he enter the fire under the symbol of a Log? To understand this, it must be remembered that the divine child born at the winter solstice was born as a new incarnation of the great god (after that god had been cut in pieces), on purpose to revenge his death upon his murderers. Now the great god, cut off in the midst of his power and glory, was symbolised as a huge tree, stripped of all its branches, and cut down almost to the ground. But the great serpent, the symbol of the life restoring Aesculapius, twists itself around the dead stock, and lo, at its side up sprouts a young tree– a tree of an entirely different kind, that is destined never to be cut down by hostile power–even the palm-tree, the well-known symbol of victory. The Christmas-tree, as has been stated, was generally at Rome a different tree, even the fir; but the very same idea as was implied in the palm-tree was implied in the Christmas-fir; for that covertly symbolised the new-born God as Baal-berith, * “Lord of the Covenant,” and thus shadowed forth the perpetuity and everlasting nature of his power, not that after having fallen before his enemies, he had risen triumphant over them all.
*
Baal-bereth, which differs only in one letter from Baal-berith, “Lord of the Covenant,” signifies “Lord of the fir-tree.”
Therefore, the 25th of December, the day that was observed at Rome as the day when the victorious god reappeared on earth, was held at the Natalis invicti solis, “The birth-day of the unconquered Sun.” Now the Yule Log is the dead stock of Nimrod, deified as the sun-god, but cut down by his enemies; the Christmas-tree is Nimrod redivivus–the slain god come to life again.
It’s a lie. Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying that either you or Hislop have lied, but what the ancient pagans believed was a lie. So, should we allow this to control what we do? Shall we never use candles? Shall we never burn wood?
You have written at great length about Illuminati symbolism in architecture; shall we not use structures any longer because the enemy has twisted their usage?
No. Who made the tree? Who made the light? It is good to honor the Creator of the universe with these things at the darkest time of the year and not let the evil one distract us.
I confirm that Rose. It’s the focus of the heart. The enemy hates any kind of celebration of Jesus and has tried to usurp and drag Christmas into Santa Claus territory. Unbelievers have fallen for that empty promise, but it doesn’t have to stop those who delight in taking back the reason for the season and lifting up Jesus in their own families, and to the empty hearts around them. Lives are changed in this season by those who are holding up the greater light to bring them home to the Father’s heart with the true story about His birth. What an opportunity!
I personally believe that Hislop in the Book “The two Babylons” reveal many present christian trends/traditions that are linked to The Babylon of old.
The Spirit of ecumenism that prevails today within many sectors of Christianity have rubbished his work as poor scholarship, even Fictional at times which is a great shame, but such is to be expected in these days of great Apostasy.
Christians are falling in love with the Great Whore rather than distancing themselves from her fornicative way.
The Apostle Paul poses this question; What as a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 2Cor6:15
The answer is an emphatic None.
As Sons and Daughters of God it is our responsibility to be separate! 2Cor6:17,18
I believe we all need to be puritans at heart.
Well said.
My biggest problem with Christmas is that we teach children the greatest truths, and mix in so many lies that the salt loses it’s saltiness and is no longer good for anything. Christmas is about teaching christianity as religion, observing it with superstition, and teaching children that Jesus is as real as Santa claus. How can I celebrate on a day/ season when I believe that this is what’s occuring?
” O Christmas tree, O christmas tree, how lovely are thy branches! We worship thee O christmas tree!”
Don’t people also think it’s a little uncomfortable/ creepy that the world celebrates the death of the two witnesses by giving each other presents?
Frosty, The Mystery of iniquity is all linked up!
Yep, thought that a time or two myself!
Just because pagans and Satanist use candles in their worship, does not mean I will throw out my candles. When the power goes out.. I depend on them to give me light to get around the house!! and keep the children from being frightened! God made everything good..Satan turns it into evil!
Dear Karen,
If you will take the time to scroll up/and then down and read some of my previous posts what I say next will tie in with it. I was raised a Roman Catholic. During junior and high school, not only did we attend Mass several days a week but studied the Catechism and had to memorize it. So what I say to you, I say in the love of Christ and from experience, not boasting at all.
In and of themselves, there is no thing wrong with candles, trees, incense, lights or beer for that matter. Ok?
But what believers in Christ need to understand (because it does indeed affect their walk), is that 1. The whole world lies in wickedness 1 John 5:19
2. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
3 (What we think is worship is not always worship to GOD.) Psalm 51 16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Religions always “speak” through symbolism. For telling the truth about that, Stephen was killed! I encourage you to read all of Acts 7, but here is verse 43Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
Many place a star on top of their tree. There IS NO star of David. David NEVER had a star. You can do some research on that too. Ok so some say it is the star that was over Jesus’s place of birth.
The real question is: Can you ‘not’ celebrate christmas? Just do not do it one year and see what happens? Ask FATHER if He wants you to lay it down? If there is anything in our lives that we refuse or have trouble with laying down (not doing) (or doing for that matter), we are not being like Christ Who showed us through His example that we are to be like Him…a servant first.
Peace,
Deirdre
Brothers and sisters in Christ..grettings in the full faith and love of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour, Amen..whom we now see the signs of His coming. Hallelujah and Glory to God in the Highest and to Christ our King. For what does it profit a follower of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour of causing strifes of words amoungst one another, whereof cometh also envy, railings, and evil surmisings? For is not God our Father in Heaven that says of a truth, “that whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God?” See to it that we follow the words of our beloved apostle Paul in his second epislte to Timothy that we should purge ourselves of this world of vain babblings. Be “a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please Him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.” Do we not also know that in the latter times we will all be turned against one another? Put off this world and the things in this world seeing that all things of this world are about to be destroyed. Build up on your most high the love and joy of our salvation and the looking up into the Heaven at the coming of our King. “Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness?” I leave you with this joy in thought…while those who have not believed in Jesus celebrate in their fabled Santa Claus, eating, drinking, and being merry, it would be a Great Glorious Day and perfect ending for our Lord and Saviour to return on the world wide celebration of His birth. Giving every soul that believes in Him the Greatest Christmas gift ever…and forever, Amen! “To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. A-men.
Jeremiah 10
Hear what the LORD says to you, people of Israel. 2 This is what the LORD says:
“Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”
Sound familiar?
Yes it sounds familiar, But as Mr Putman already pointed out.. that passage is not about tree decore, but using the tree and shaping it into a form covering it with silver and gold that it might be worshipped as an Idol.
However; as pointed out by Deirdre in an earlier post, Trees and groves were part and parcel of heathen worship ( 2 Kings 17:10 And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree: 18 And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger: Exodus 34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:)
I wonder what would happen if the entire body of Christ uniformly boycotted Christmas for a year or two? What would be the reaction from the unbelieving public, if we all said, “BECAUSE we are followers of Jesus, we are not celebrating Christmas. Go ahead, ban all the nativity scenes, what do we care.”.
Thoughts?
That would be great!
There would not be enough Christians to make any difference
Good idea though.
If celebrating anyone’s birthday with streamers, lights, a birthday dinner, presents, lots of joy, care, love, music and cake is in anyones’s thinking and research, satanic and demonic in origin to them……don’t do it! That personal decision is respected and acknowledged. But for those of us who through much research and thinking have come to their own peaceful decisions to joyfully honour this special birthday, we do so with much delight, careful thought, prayer and discernment. Our focus is the person, who they are as gift, and our hearts desire to celebrate and honour them. Let’s not decorate a tree, let’s decorate our tables, chairs, curtain rods, mantles, will that solve the problem? Nah! It’s all about the heart’s focus. Jesus is the reason for the season to a Christian and the tree holds no power, no sway over their heart. It’s just a tree! If we cast off everything others have wrongly associated with the kingdom of darkness, it would include structures, animals, body parts, furniture pieces, beds, many words, and all forms of media. Hmmmmmm! Interesting don’t you think? Jesus death on a tree has changed the landscape for all eternity. What does your heart see in Scripture? What is its focus? Only Jesus!
I cannot see how anyones birthday relates to the discussion. Jesus was not born on 25Dec . I got a birth certificate to prove my birthday.
It that was so, that Christ was born on 25Dec, then the Church of Rome would have legitimate claim. The reason for the season was to convert Heathens to Catholicism. If anything, it was rather a sinister way of gaining control of the populous. which she succeeded in doing.
Oh Jaz, you miss the point, who cares what date! Come out of the old reasons for the seasons, just like people come out of the old church system, but still celebrate The Word, Communion, Fellowship, on Sundays, or whatever day at home, or with friends around a meal. One can celebrate Jesus without being “part”of the old system.
Learn not the way of the heathen
Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
Dear Mr. Putman,
I do appreciate your putting this post up and allowing folks to discuss this matter, however I would like to address your statement “Paganism did not infect Christianity but rather Christianity made paganism irrelevant.”
This statement falls right in line with Roman Catholicism, the very thing you seem to be against.
See this image for a visual on your statement.(image of obelisk with cross on top)
My Dad, a sculptor and die hard RC, said that the cross on top of the obelisk meant that Christianity over came paganism. Well, when artists want to say something, they do. Why the teeny, tiny cross on top of the massive obelisk?
Why not do what the prophets were told to do and TEAR THESE THINGS DOWN!
Look the bottom line is this: Catholics are Jews who go all the way. (Jerusalem was destroyed, no more sacrifices to be made, but the enemy loves to mock our LORD.) What better way to perpetuate two lies: 1 the need for a perpetual sacrifice 2 the mockery of the LORD.
Protestants don’t actually ‘protest’ because they perpetuate what was taught by their mother, the RCC, otherwise “Christians” would not be obligated to Sunday worship, tithing and ‘holidays’.
So if Protestants are really Catholics, who are really Jews, what kind of Jews are we talking about here?
Answer: Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Dear Chris, if you think I am being harsh, I ask, what do you think FATHER YAHWEY is going to be like when we stand before HIM in judgement?
Truth Is a lie never was! Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
One of the plagues is Spiritual death. Isaiah 5:9 In mine ears said the LORD of hosts, Of a truth many houses shall be desolate, even great and fair, without inhabitant.
What kind of houses? People. For we are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
If you are still in “church” this is why you are still celebrating ‘christ mass’ and why there is much confusion.
Let GOD be true and every man a liar!
Peace,
Deirdre
Hi, I am the State Section Director for MUFON Los Angeles. Would either of Mr. Putman or Mr. Horn or both care to give a lecture in Los Angeles on Exo-Vaticana and related subjects? Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you.
Jeremiah 10:3-4
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
I am confused because the Scripture refers to a tree.
Chris says, “Jeremiah 10 describes fashioning Canaanite idols from fresh cut wood and precious metals.”
He then builds a case based on the actions of men. The Word clearly states this is a heathen custom of bring a “tree” into the house not wood.
Why stop with Christmas? Throw up the paganism flags and do away with wedding rings and I’ll bet the ceremony itself. The days of the week and the numbers on a clock. What about language? I’m sure the words that tumble out of our mouths weren’t invented by holy people. What about birthday parties? The JW’s may have a point? What about fire? I bet some pagan practices involved fire. What about group singing? The origins of everything came from men that probably didn’t know God. There is no escape from walking in their shoes – we can just tidy up a bit here and there. Teach our kids that it’s all make believe, and the God of the Bible is the solid true thing. It’s written in our hearts to reach out to the invisible God – men reached in the dark. The men that began us.
Just because so many people throughout history have murdered does that make it ok for you to murder? Just because so many in history have stolen does that make it ok to steal? Just because so many in history have raped or pillaged does that make it right to rape or pillage? No it doesn’t. God says it is wrong then it is wrong. Rings in ancient Times were of magical intent and if looked at properly to bind a soul. A magical ritual. The traditional Hebrew wedding does not use rings. In scripture it is even mentioned about rings. Tree worship is well known In pagan belief. It is also if thought about, bringing in something that was created and alive now dead into your home. And not being used for what it should be. When fire was used for cooking and heating that was fine and good but when used for magic and sorcery it became evil. Somethings depend on the intent of someone. The reason the Broadway is mentioned as the Broadway that leads to destruction is partly saying that many will do that which many before them did with no regard for the fact you do not need to suffer the same fate someone else does but many will because they see no problem with it. Look at it this way. We know stealing is wrong and when caught you suffer a punishment for it. So if someone is punished for it does it make it ok for you to expecting because you are not them that you will not suffer the same? Of course you will suffer the same. If your parents jumped off a cliff and survived does that mean if you did you will live also? No it doesn’t. Would you even take that chance? I wouldn’t. Like a parent who teaches their child what is right and wrong and not be listened to, God is saying the same. It’s not what the child thinks is right but what the parent knows to be right. Good calls us children and so we need to follow that rule. The good parent knows best. When you know a sin to be a sin then continuing to commit that sin you are more guilty than someone who did not know that sin was a sin. As in the days of Noah. This means 8 people were saved out of how many? Say out of 8,000 that’s 0.1% saved. So out of 7 billion? Well the same % would only be 700,000 saved. Not alot but enough. Not saying that is the % but illustrates that very few were saved. Would you want to be of the majority to be punished when after told something is wrong by God you continue to do what you now know to be wrong because the majority do it and share the same fate and regret? No thank you. Not a punishment I want.
“Many are called, Few are chosen. Narrow is the gate, few there be that enter in said the Lord. That should make us all ponder much about the enormity of the ecumenical sea of Mystery Babylon!
I guess just a few random comments!! It’s not to hard to see why there are estimated to be somewhere between 30,000 and 40,000 different Christian denominations world wide. Do you believe it could be as simple as the Apostle Paul claims in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 I mean the Lord certainly couldn’t make it as easy as he did for the Israelites wandering in the desert? Just look up at the serpent on the pole and be healed. Do you believe that all the wrath that was intended for you was put on Christ at the cross? What iota of a thing can you add to that? That doesn’t mean before your feet hit the ground in the morning, as you lay in bed, “What sins will I commit today?” The Day of the Catching Away of the Body of Christ, will you be sinning? Yep, if you are breathing air. Sins knowingly and unknowingly? Don’t worry about Christmas Trees know one has gone to Hell for Christmas Trees. Just look to the Tree on which He Hung. Merry Christmas, James
Okay, so I find that your article is most certainly false. Which calls me to question whether you have performed proper research. I was born and raised a Catholic, but I enjoy researching all past and present major religions. I find that I have become a much more devout believer when I learn, read, and think for myself. Instead of just following other peoples footsteps and believe things are true just because I was told so. So many “religious people”, dont think for themselves and just believe in a religion because that is what they are told to. And lets face some facts, the Catholic church, which is the basis for Christianity, has made more than their fair share of mistakes and lies! Lies like Mary Magdaline was a whore, one that they have now admitted was made up! They killed, burned, and hurt thousands all while hiding behind a cross. This wasn’t GOD’s work, this was the work of flawed men. No GOD of mine who condone such cruelty and hatred. But this isn’t my point and I have gotten a bit off topic. In Paganism, one of the Sabbats is called Yule or the Winter Solstice which occurs between December 20-23. December 21 is the most recognized day of the Winter Solstice and is considered the longest night. Pagan rituals include: burning yule logs, enacting the battle of the Holly King and the Oak King, or celebrating the birth of the Sun Child. They may also exchange gifts, meditate on themes of rebirth and restoration, decorate an evergreen tree, or hold festive dances like the traditional “Horn Dance.” Some stay up all through this longest night to greet the sunrise with much rejoicing. Science and Historians have proven that Jesus’ birth most certainly did not occur in December or even the Fall. It occured in the summer. The story of Jesus and his birth is also not unique. There are many other cultures that pre-date Christianity by hundreds of years with the same virgin mother giving birth to a prophet like child. Which begs the questions: Which story is true? were they all true? Did the council of Nicaea copy stories from other cultures (i.e. the story of Noah’s arc which is also found in Egyptian stories)? Why were they allowed to leave out gospels from the bible? Who said that these MEN had the power to decide such things like, Christological issue of the nature of the Son of God and his relationship to God the Father,the construction of the first part of the Creed of Nicaea, establishing uniform observance of the date of Easter, and many other aspects of Christianity?
Aspects of Christmas are found in countless other cultures.
Numerous cultures feature a Goddess giving birth to a Sun God: Isis and Horus in Egypt, Leto and Apollo in Greece, etc. The Hopi kachinas emerge from their underground home to join the tribe. In Italy, the good witch Befana flies down chimneys to bring presents. In England and Germany, this is also the time of the Wild Hunt, led by Herne or Woden respectively. In Japan, the Sun Goddess Amaterasu emerges from Her cave. In Wicca, the Great Mother brings forth the Sun Child. Alternatively the Oak King, God of the Waxing Year, vanquishes the Holly King, God of the Waning Year. The Goddess shows Her aspect of Life-in-Death.
It seems to me that being a Christian that celebrates Christmas means celebrating the birth of a JEWISH savior by receiving gifts beneath a PAGAN tree from an obese, GERMAN trespasser!
Regardless, I do be live in GOD, I LOVE Christmas, and I do believe Jesus may have been the son of GOD (BUT HE DEFINITELY WAS NOT GOD, he was a man. A man who lived, loved deeply and died).
On a side note that is totally off topic (like much of this rant), if it is against our religion to worship any other besides GOD, why does it seem like the whole of Christianity worships Jesus, who was a man/son of God but not God?
Jesus is part of the totality of the Godhead, but while Jesus was on the earth He worshipped the father and modeled for us the proper way to do that. So when we seek to live like Jesus we are doing what He did which is worship the father.
The angel in Revelation spells it out for us. Worship God by following Jesus’s teaching.
Revelation 19: 10 When I heard this, I fell at his feet to worship him.
But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I serve God, just as you do. I am God’s servant, just like other believers who hold firmly to what Jesus has taught. Worship God! What Jesus taught is the very heart of prophecy.”
To put a finer point on this for clarity, to worship Jesus is to love Jesus and to love Jesus is to obey Jesus.
If you obey Jesus you are therefore worshipping God in the proper and pure way. Worshipping Jesus is synonymous with worshipping God. Doing one does both at the same time. It’s why the father and son relationship is so important. In whole, in part, perhaps both (that would be a mystery) they are of The same nature. He is in the Father and the Father is in Him.
Amen to that.
Watcher, you just contradicted what your first passage said. According to you ” Revelation 19: 10 When I heard this, I fell at his feet to worship him.
But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I serve God, just as you do. I am God’s servant, just like other believers who hold firmly to what Jesus has taught. Worship God! What Jesus taught is the very heart of prophecy.”
But then you go on to say” Worshipping Jesus is synonymous with worshipping God.” How can you honestly believe that if you believe the passage in the bible you just gave me. In revelations, he tried to worship Jesus and Jesus said DONT DO THAT! I SERVE GOD, JUST AS YOU DO!” So if Jesus says dont worship me, instead worship God, how can worshipping Jesus be synonymous with worshiping GOD? That makes no sense. If you follow the teachings of Jesus he tells you he isn’t God, and he isnt synonymous with God. He is his humble servant, his prophet, and his son (like we all are God’s children). Im just as much the daughter of God as Jesus is the son of God. Jesus wasnt God and your passage proves that Jesus knew that. Its not right to worship jesus! We should only worship god, and live our lives as Jesus did. He showed us the way to worship God, not himself
Go back and read the passage in Revelation again. Jesus isn’t saying not to worship him… An angel is.
Jesus, the father and holy spirit are seperate and yet connected.
I am on my iphone, so hard to type a lot on this subject.
Jesus freely received worship and he forgave people’s sin. There is a huge amount of descriptions of God in the OT that are used to describe Jesus (like “first and last”).
Jesus said that he had sent the prophets, when the OT said that God himself sends the prophets.
There is so much that can be discovered and it’s easy to look at this topic online.
It is even a more humbling story to hear that God didn’t send someone else to be brutalized – he prepared a way for himself to suffer. God understands very well the problem of pain.
Might as well jump in with both feet. First of all Catholicism is not the basis for all Christianity. It is a Jewish Book. He is the Jewish Messiah. They rejected him, so He has set them aside for a while. He sent a Jew named Saul (Paul) to deliver a New Message to the Gentiles. That God was in Christ reconciling himself to the world. Jesus is the word of God made flesh. Life’s only question is what will you do with that dead Jew who got up and walked out of that Tomb? Merry Christmas
Catholicism is the basis for all False christianity! That is what we are to come out of.
Well this one’s a hot potato, isn’t it?
Cris Putnam:
Cris, you sound very dogmatic there. You don’t concede that there are valid doubts?
Yes, I can’t say I ever thought “Christmas tree!” when I read that passage…
In your comment to Jaz, you speak of requiring “a chain of evidence”. I don’t know that this is a reasonable demand when dealing with any practice quite that ancient, but there are enough very similar pagan customs — much older than the Christmas tree itself — to cast doubt upon its roots (pun fully intended). Hence whilst the Encyclopaedia Britannica states that the modern Christmas tree originated in western Germany, it also states:
A number of commenters have defended Christmas by saying that if one does away with Christmas, then one might as well do away with birthdays. Interestingly, neither birthdays nor Christmas were celebrated by the early Christians. From Encyclopaedia Britannica again:
I remember the shock I had when I searched Scripture to find out what God’s Word had to say on the practice of celebrating one’s own birthday. Of course there’s no proscription against it, but there are only two people in the Bible recorded as celebrating their own birthday. Which two? …Guess!
Would to God that that were true: in my godforsaken native land, the culture is utterly pagan, and it’s Christianity that’s in the trash…
And just in case anyone’s wondering, no I’m not a JW. 😉
I want to start off by saying that I HATE (i am careful with my words mind you) the nephilim and if you knew me personally you would concur that I literally HATE them especially the ones who were human-like Nimrod and became one. Now if you haven’t studied about Nimrod and what he was and how his wife instituted this whole x-mas gibberish then you can either continue to ignore historical truth and keep going on your Merry-Nimrod ways or you can see things for what they are and admit that this x-mas bit is a scam to get us believers to unknowingly bow down to NImrod and his mother. One only needs to look at our national monuments and see how pervasive we are steeped in Babylonian architecture. We are in for it my dear American Christian brothers and sisters, judgement is soon coming on our country for specifically being steeped in the worship of Nimrod.
Jaz if your in So-CAL, let me know if your interested in public preaching about Nimrod and America’s downfall because of our sin in worshiping him. I have been looking for a zealous brother to stand by my side to do some public preaching on this matter, our time is short. As in the days of Noah we need to go out and warn the remnant to get in the boat (Jesus saves).
Do we really need to warn the remnant? Are they not lead by the Holy Spirit? They will never be forsaken. The remnant are in the boat, b/c they have come out of “her”. The folks that need the warning are those who “make out” with the false church.
Mr. Putman,
Would you please answer these questions for me?
Do you believe in a pre-trib rapture?
What denomination do you belong to?
Thank you for your time.
Lee
Are you going to answer these questions? Do you run this blog?
the lack of your own participation, makes me think you are a tease….????
Merry Christmas!
And a Kool Yule to you Madam.
The real question is since much of this site deals with the Pope, why does he have an 88% approval rating in the US?
Therein (the Mystery of iniquity) shall be found the “Strong delusion” when God Almighty gives the wicked over to the lie 2Thes2:11
In other words; none will detect the real mackoy before their eyes.
It is not going to be about UFO’s and microchip implants to alter human DNA into nephelim , It shall be the subtleness of the False prophet leading the world into the worship of the Image of the beast. Rev13:15
I’m with jazz and Whitley…if christians participate in activities that everyone else does, then how does this look in the eyes of the world? Paul said he became all things to all men in order to win souls…so does celebrating this pagan festival give opportunity to save souls? If a Christian needs to do this to save someone, no problem, but if this is just for their own family celebration then I see it as wrong. When we know that food is sacrificed to idols we should abstain and I see a similar pattern for christmas… Ie Christ mass.
The Lord wants us to be separate from the world, but not judging it and those non believers who do Xmas. I see the world like an ocean with people drowning and we jump in to save them, but we don’t stay in for long or we put ourselves in danger.
Going in to a mosque to make a friend and witness to him is different than going to a mosque to worship Allah , but praying to god secretly, all the while having every outward appearance of following Muslim worship. To weak Christians this may cause them to sin, and it doesn’t help for reaching lost Muslims.
I was raised in the cult of the RCC and came out of it at 17 when I left home. The RCC did not invent Christianity as the first Christians were converted Jews.
The RCC did in fact invent Christ-mass as we call it to lure pagans and Christians into the same boat. I am always cautious of anyone using Martin Luther as a guide for the Christian walk. He broke with the RCC, good for him, he didn’t take it all the way as there is much wrong with the Lutheran sects. But I digress. There are many CINOS who will worship whatever come along that sounds good to them be it a man a book or a manifestation of what they perceive to be the Holy Spirit. Then there are true believers who are ignorant of the word and that doesn’t make there salvation suspect as much as it makes them prey to the schemes of satan/santa. So much history on the subject of “is Christ-mass rooted in paganism to ignore. If the magic, the religiosity of Xmas was so significant to the world then why are there not many coming to the knowledge of the Messiah who’s very name the holiday is based on and believe in Him trusting Him for their lives as they observe this day. it’s a tradition of man and as such it is of the world. It’s based on faith not on tradition so it’s not sound. I respect Chris Putnam as a researcher and was surprised to read this post on the blog about Xmas trees not being pagan. I disagree with Chris on this issue and respect the right of those that wish to celebrate this holiday but will always warn against it. I do the same with the holiday easter and halloween. I was raised in the man made traditions of Dec. 25th and raised my kids with it as well but without the santa/satan lie. My children have grown up, married and have children of their own and it’s been several years since I celebrated Xmas and it is liberating. That’s right, liberating to not get involved in the whole mess and not just the bother and the rush and expense of it all but the peace that comes with the avoidance of the holiday. Xmas day 1981 I was alone, no tree, no gifts, no dinner and it was that day that I trusted the Lord with my life. I’ve celebrate that everyday since. As Deirdre said, “Can you lay it down?” It not why?. Shalom and Maranatha
I see this debate is still rumbling on. (Don’t know where Cris got to, though…)
Anyway, I just wanted to comment on one of the arguments above, namely the argument that since we live in lands whose heritage is pagan, and since we’d have our work cut out extirpating every last trace of paganism from the culture in which we find ourselves and from the language we speak, we should therefore simply forget about such things, as they’ve no power over us, and simply celebrate Christmas without worrying about it.
I think this is confusing two separate arguments: whilst the names of the days & months may be pagan, they are not church celebrations. It is rather the mixture of Christ with paganism which is moot, and this mixing has been the practice of the Church of Rome since time immemorial: i.e. the gathering of heathen peoples under the umbrella of Rome via syncretism (which of course extends Rome’s reach and consolidates her power around the globe). Today this syncretism is perhaps most noticeable to us when we look at places like Asia, South America or the Caribbean states, but Rome did exactly the same thing in Europe (and hence, by extension, North America). …Yet this was done so long ago, and we’re so accustomed to it, that we scarcely notice it.
And the fellow who asked whether we should, “Do away with all Holidays and celebrations?” is getting a bit carried away. No-one has argued that ditching Christmas means never celebrating anything, ever. The question is about Christmas: it’s got Christ’s name stamped upon it, yet it’s nowhere called for in Scripture, the first believers did not celebrate it, and has a great cloud of dubious associations (and in today’s West — certainly in my country, Britain — is almost wholly an ungodly splurge of spending, boozing, gluttony, hook-ups and revelry, greatly beloved of the sellers of merchandise who now boldly herald its coming for almost a quarter of the year).
So does Christ love it or loathe it?
Steeples, stained glass and Promise
Keepers were not mentioned in the bible
either. If anyone wants to make up an
“I love Jesus day” – that is cool by me.
Some of you guys want to jump straight
in with dumping Christmas logic, but you
wear a wedding ring on your finger and
sit in a Chinese restaurant with dragon
gods staring at you while you eat crab
Rangoon! 🙂
It’s a personal decision where you draw
The line. JW’s draw it where I wouldn’t – and
some here do also.
Hi Kevin.
Thanks for your quick reply to my post.
Hey, preach it, brother! 😉
What you say is absolutely right, Kevin: they’re not in the Bible. Yet just like Christmas, they’re things which are now associated with Christ. So, the $64,000,000 question is, so what does Christ think of them? I don’t know anything much about Promise Keepers, as I’m a limey not a Kiwi or a yank, so I’ll leave that one for others to answer. …But living in Britain, I do know a fair bit about stained glass and steeples. They cost an absolute flipping fortune. (Yes, even stained glass does! …Don’t believe me? See here.) And I don’t think I’m going out on too much of a limb to venture to suggest that Our Lord rather hates them.
Why do I say that? Well, for one thing, He didn’t tell us to “go into all the world and build cathedrals in all nations”, and for another, the cost of erecting these monuments to human works God and then keeping them standing could have fed and clothed poor believers and evangelised countless millions throughout the ages. The early church sold their lands to feed and clothe poor believers: the church builders sucked money from the poor to acquire land, and then sucked a bunch more from them to erect a building on it. Nope, I don’t think God’s too awed with our spires and our glass…
On the matter of wedding rings, hey, I’m old-skool (i.e. I’m a bald, bearded bloke and in my book, jewellery looks best on ladies, so no ring for me), and as for Chinese food and dragon gods, the point is that (unlike Christmas and cathedrals) they are not in any way associated with the name of Christ. Were someone to start associating dragons with Jesus, I’d have a problem (just as God had a problem with the Israelites’ insistence that YHWH was a golden calf).
We’ll probably disagree on all this, of course, but I’m sure you can see what’s at stake — it’s not paganism that’s the issue here (pagans will do what pagans will do), but rather it’s this business of slapping Jesus’ name on things which He could very well absolutely detest.
Anyway, thanks for your answer — I was hoping Cris would show up and post a response, here, but he seems to have gone…
Dear Chris,
Thank you for the good work you have done and continue to do here.
I just had had the accidental opportunity to bump to your site less than five days ago and since then I have been enjoying the various discussions that have happened before my time.
I do not fellowship with a particular denomination. However, since I started looking around for a spiritual guidance I have enjoyed the Christian, Judaism and Islamic discussions and their eschatology. And being ignorant in all spiritual matters I have not been able so far to distinguish the right or wrong spiritual path.
As I do not intend to insult your and others’ intelligence, I found some brilliant minds I need to approach on a personal level for my own spiritual growth and enlightenment. I’m sorry if this sounds selfish but I do not have the knowledge and the intellect to engage in your wider discussions. I’m on a journey and I hope to pick up some strengths as I go along to one day be able to contribute to the various discussions here and on the net.
Therefore on a personal level, I would like to engage with the following contributors to your site (Xmas Tree, Petrus Romanus and the Jerusalem Connection):
1. Chris Putnam ( could not get your e-mail from this site)
2. Jaz ( on Xmas Tree 12/12-23/2013)
3. Stephen Leach (commented on 03/09/2012)
4. Lee (commented on 03/17/2012)
5. John B (commented on 03/17/2012)
6. Good Soldier (commented on 03/17/2012)
7. Interesting Info (commented on 05/06/2012)
8. George (commented on 04/14/2012)
Please, all of you listed above if you bump here again please e-mail me for some personal development questions. Also, Chris may be able to send you this request via your e-mail.
Thanking you all!
Kind regards,
Alexis
PS: Please note that all participants have a valid point. And those whom I am not engaging now I shall contact them later.
E-mail: alexis.kury@gmail.com
To those bound in abnegation…. Enjoy your freedom. Why not set up two trees?
So many argue that it is ok but then others not so i’m going to let jeremiah chapter 2 tell you all. Now please read carefully then add to this jeremiah chapter 10 about decorating trees.
Jeremiah chapter 2 verse 20.
“For of old I have broken your yoke and burst your bonds; And you say, ‘I will not transgress,’ When on every high hill (mmm vatican on 7 of em also add Francis of Assissi aka father Christmas aka Peter the Roman also the name sake of this emperor of rome or pope which ever you want, in other words research that, a catholic part of whore of Babylon implementing Christmas). anyway, where was i?
ah yes. When on every high hill and UNDER EVERY GREEN TREE YOU LAY DOWN, PLAYING THE HARLOT.
under what? EVERY GREEN TREE. Christmas tress are ever greens. mmm not sure about you but there is that and also EVERY MEANS ALL, people. get out of your heads the notion it is ok. A FALLEN ANGEL ON TOP or A WHORE SEXUALLY PRODDED BY THE TOP OF A TREE? A PHALLIC SYMBOL OF A yes you guessed it, CENSOR TIME. or a pentagram on top. mmm. bending down to a phallic symbol that’s what whore do when paid for oral %$%. placing presents under a tree is tempting you to bend down to a phallic symbol of Tammuz’s &*(^ or oral £$£. seriously. you want your kids to do that yet complain about porn on tv? get real. it is also mentioned elsewhere in scripture about bending down under every green tree. try reading Leviticus, Deuteronomy etc
it is written that you shall not enter if you drink from the devil’s cup and the Father’s cup. Father Yhwh does not like that. when you celebrate even valentine’s day your are committing fornication with the whore. such as Halloween, Easter (Ishtar). Father gave the feast days and his people are Hebrew so we should observe them not anything else. This is why so many miss the meaning of “as it was in the days of Noah being also very few shall enter heaven as 8 were saved out of how many? days of Lot 9 saved out of how many? it is also written that Yeshua said few shall enter heaven so if you think 2 billion Christians are going to heaven then that is not scriptural accuracy. FEW not 1 third. The uncircumcised (gentiles) who observe this shall become circumcised (Hebrew) this is not a physical thing. If you want to celebrate Christmas then you fornicate with the whore as she would like you to. so be it on your head don’t say i did not warn you. Santa Clause is the SATAN CLAUSE/LOOPHOLE LEGALLY as that is what a clause is. a loophole. santa rules the skies. mmm false god also does what Satan can do and is also the prince of the sky? and you still want to blaspheme? well it is written in the last days that many would stray and few would be called. it does not say that many cannot see the prophecy but they cannot see their own folly is what it is saying. hence not seeing the times.
Well, this thread has sure turned into a wad of… something. I’ve been “laying out” until now, preferring to observe the spectrum of opinion coming in. I needed input, some “point-counterpoint”. There’s sure been plenty of it. “Fury trees”? What’re those? Are they like fir trees, but angry? There’s been talk of “martydem”, even. Okay, those’re probably typos, but who knew that “every green tree” equals “ever greens”? That is new information.
To be sure, there have been salient points as well, from both sides. Looks as though the input from others has all but ceased, so I’ll offer mine, fwiw. From what I can gather, there are two basic views about Christmas which are contending here:
1. Christmas has pagan roots (as do it’s associated trees), and therefore should be shunned by Christians worthy of the term “Christian”.
2. Christmas as celebrated by Christians is not pagan, and is therefore perfectly within the realm of Christian liberty to observe—or to not observe—as the individual believer chooses.
On which “side” am I? Well, frankly, I’m not sure. Yet. (Besides, there is a bigger issue, which I’ll get into later.) First, a bit of disclosure…
This “Christmas-celebration-yea-or-nay” issue is one that I’ve wrestled with for years, especially for the last decade. It’s been a conundrum for me since becoming a Christian in the mid ‘70s. Santa Claus isn’t an issue for me, he was easy to drop. Distracted me from Jesus, and His provision for me. (Yeah, I know about Nikolaos of Myra. The modern “Santa Claus” bears little, if any resemblance to him.)
No, Santa was an easy issue, but the celebration of the holiday at all has been tougher for me to decide. This is simply because—despite it’s alleged pagan roots—Christmas, as it is usually celebrated by Christians, is popularly associated with Jesus Christ, not with paganism. This is an observable fact. Even atheists associate Christmas with Jesus Christ, which is one reason they work so hard at destroying it, and readily come to the aid of anyone trying to cast Christmas as non-Christian. It’s a clever strategy: Discredit the Christian aspects of the day’s celebration, over-emphasize the “pagan roots” idea, divorce the day from any association with Christ, pooh-pooh centuries of Christian tradition as “irrelevant”… do all that and you’re on your way to “de-legitimizing” Christianity, and along with it, Jesus Himself. You’ll get lots of help, even from many Christians who have good intentions but operate on incomplete information. (I’m not suggesting that anyone here is knowingly in sympathy with atheists, I’m just pointing to the shared result.)
In the past, especially in the last few years, I’d been slipping more and more into the “Christmas-is-pagan-so-I-must-avoid-it” category. But I’ve never been really sure either way, so taking either position firmly in practice has been problematic. The difficulty has at times made me a bit ill, literally. It has gotten so bad that—these days—I abhor the season’s approach as much as I relished it as a child.
And what good is that? It certainly doesn’t glorify the Lord, all this moping about; trying to be “cheerful” without actually doing anything “Christmassy”, anything that might turn out to be “pagan”. Fact is, I sometimes get so preoccupied with avoiding “paganism” that I forget to think about the Lord’s glory much at all. That’s how it’s been the past few holiday seasons; miserable.
Meanwhile, my believing wife continues (in spite of my involuntary moroseness) to enjoy the season to it’s fullest non-pagan extent. No Yule logs or Santa, mind you, but still complete with trimmed trees, wreaths, decorations, lights, cookies, baking, etc. and all with a perfectly clear conscience. And wouldn’t you know, she is the one who ends up sharing the Lord, ministering Christ, being an example of Christian joy to everyone she meets. Meanwhile, I sit around and agonize about stringing some lights on the house. 2013 was a teensy bit different; it was worse.
Then I come across this thread, and read Cris’s title “Christmas Trees Are Not Pagan”, and I think “Here we go again, more controversy, that unresolved question dragged to my attention one more excruciating time…” I suppose my problem is that I tend to be analytical. I can see both sides of this controversy, and that makes it hard for me to decide on a course of action—a settled policy regarding Christmas celebration—that I can stand behind with any conviction. There’s been some good points made by both sides here, as well as some irrelevant points. There’s been much documentation offered, some of it good, but some of it contradictory if not erroneous. There’s been much info and arguments that I’ve heard before, and some which are new to me. On top of that, there’s an interesting “twist” to the whole subject.
The “twist” comes in the form of some surprises in the discussion. Big ones, too! Besides some good pro-Christmas info of which I wasn’t aware (see links in Chris’s article, and in the bottom post of this thread), and some new slants on old arguments from both sides, I find that a few of the most stringent “it’s pagan” opinions are being posted by the most unexpected sources. Well, unexpected by me, anyway. I will explain…
Some of us here have been involved in discussions on this blog regarding essential Christian doctrine, particularly the Trinity and the person-hood of the Holy Spirit. (I see a familiar name or two.) What is so surprising to me is that a few of those holding certain opinions in those other threads are posting opinions in this thread which are opposite to what I would have expected from them. For instance, a couple of people (one in particular) who posted here about their firm conviction that “Christmas is pagan” had no qualms about attacking the doctrine of the Trinity in those other threads, even claiming that Trinitarianism is a “Roman Catholic invention”. When others (me included) posted biblical references supporting the Trinity and the person-hood of the Holy Spirit, and also stressed the importance of holding sound doctrine regarding the nature of God—that it is extremely important to be biblical (which the Trinity is) in order to be worshiping the real God—we were denounced as being “Pharisees” and being “too literal” and “too dogmatic” and “too legalistic”. We were supposedly “condemning” those who were “just asking questions” (as some of them hid behind semantic gyrations while deriding biblical answers as “mere theological opinions”). We were also accused of being “prideful” for actually claiming to understand what the Bible says about the nature of God. Cris himself, as he stood for biblical doctrine, was grouped with us “Pharisees” and “doctrinal tyrants”.
But what do I find here? Well, though not everyone on the “Christmas is pagan” side here is among them, nevertheless, a couple of these same “anti-Pharisees” from those other threads are themselves being the most Pharisaical about… what? The Resurrection? No. The Incarnation? No. The deity of Christ? Heavens no. No, these humble, open-minded, anti-Pharisee, non-judgmental types are strictly committed to abstinence from… a holiday. A holiday that—despite its historical inaccuracies about what it celebrates—is so closely associated with Jesus Christ that its occurrence almost guarantees that the subject of the Savior will come up in casual conversation; an opportunity to share the good news, in some way. Such an opportunity is trivial to some of these “Christmas is pagan” types, apparently. No, they wouldn’t want us sharing even the Christian reason for the season. They’d rather we ignore the holiday completely, offering some debatable information “proving” that Christmas isn’t Christian, while missing the point of its Christian observance entirely. At the same time, they give aid (inadvertently, I assume) to the atheists who wish to debunk Christianity altogether. That tells me something, I think.
Not that I haven’t squandered lots of Christmas witnessing opportunities myself. Lord knows I have! That’s the point I guess. All this agonizing about whether to celebrate a holiday—is it okay or not okay?—bears no good fruit at all, just misery and doubt. Does that sound like victory in Christ? Not to me.
Now, please take note, I’m not advocating what some people do at Christmastime. Someone posted how that the holiday in their country has become “an ungodly splurge of spending, boozing, gluttony, hook-ups and revelry”. It’s like that in the U.S. too. None of that has anything to do with the Christian celebration of the holiday being proposed by some in this thread, does it? Of course not. And could it be that, part of the reason that the season has been returning to its alleged pagan roots and debauchery is because Christians have neglected the Christian celebration of it?
As for myself, I’m still not sure, regarding my own practice, in the future, I mean. Got to do more research over the next year. But as to that “bigger issue” I mentioned earlier, there is a conviction I find growing in me, and this thread has highlighted that conviction in my busy little noggin. It is this:
This Christmas thing is a huge distraction.
Now, by “Christmas thing”, I don’t mean the celebration of it. That isn’t the distraction.
No, the distraction is the controversy among Christians that surrounds Christmas. That is what I find so distracting.
Is this controversy profitable, in a biblical sense? I wonder. Think about it. There are so many attacks these days coming at the Church, at the Bible, at “the Faith once for all delivered to the saints”. Some of those attacks have been discussed at length on this blog. Cris has posted lately about attacks on the biblical doctrines regarding the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, modern Israel, etc. There is the RC’s ecumenism, the “Eucharist”, “Marian” apparitions, “Contemplative Spirituality”, “Christian Palestinianism”, replacement theology, The homosexual agenda, the “purpose driven” agenda, and more. All these apostasies are in full attack mode, and what are we worried about here? Colored lights? Pine trees? Decorations? Celebrating the Lord’s (1st) arrival in this world as a Man on a day of the year that it didn’t happen? We’re all worked up into a lather about that?
Don’t get me wrong; maybe you “avoid Christmas” advocates are right, maybe not. But at the same time I can’t help but wonder: Could there be some gnat-straining and camel-swallowing going on? Some “majoring in minors”?
Hey, I’m just “asking questions” here. The “humble” people know what that’s about.
Now, some will protest, “Hey! I can talk about Jesus without a bogus holiday!” Good for you. Certainly there may be an opportunity to share the gospel in a conversation about how Jesus was not born on December 25th , and why you don’t celebrate. Just don’t get bogged down in the “when” at the expense of the “why”. And don’t forget, the opportunity to tell folks about Jesus and why you don’t celebrate the holiday came about by the existence of the holiday itself.
Yes, I know, there is no “biblical mandate” for celebrating the Lord’s birth. Neither is there a prohibition against it. So then, is it good to burden people about the integrity of their faith being compromised by something as innocuous as celebrating the Lord’s birth on December 25? It is the intent of the heart that concerns the Lord, so is anybody “actually worshiping Nimrod” by decorating their living room with a tree, even if it does light up?
We are considering the celebration of a “day” here. We are not considering the biblical revelation of various aspects of God’s nature (such as the person-hood of the Holy Spirit) which bear on His very identity. We are not dealing with foundational, essential doctrine. So, wouldn’t the intent of one’s heart have a direct bearing on the issue here? “Christmas celebration”, I mean?
A lot of questions, I know. But “humble” people can deal with questions. Or so I’ve been told.
Now, I don’t fault Cris for bringing up the subject. As I said, his article and links have put me on to some relevant information that I didn’t have, and which will help put things into perspective. Some of you who have posted here have… uh, “enhanced” that perspective as well, though probably not in the way you intended.
Maybe I’ll “get it right” by December 2014. Or, maybe I won’t need to. Meanwhile, thanks for the thread, Cris.
And thank you Jesus, for coming into this world as a Man, dying in my place, and rising from the dead to give me a place in You, clothed in Your righteousness. I look forward to the day that we meet in the air. Come, Lord Jesus.
This is what happens to your nails if you apply French manicure.
With gas prices climbing sky high and employment still at it’s peak, more and more women are looking for
easy ways to cut corners. It can be a great reward for them
and an effective motivational return for you.
Christmas is over. CAN WE PLEASE MOVE TO ANOTHER TOPIC, ALREADY????
Well, this particular thread is about Christmas, so I s’pose it isn’t realistic to expect the topic here to change. If you wish to avoid the topic, avoiding this thread should do the trick for you.
I’m sure Cris will start a new thread as soon as he is able.
I posted a follow-up comment here some time ago, and it never appeared — don’t know whether it’s still in moderation, or whether it was pulled. Hmmm…
I get so much spam, that if it has a link embedded in it then it is not posted. I do not have time to do a lot of moderating. Just do not use swear words or links and it will go through.
Ah! Yes, I believe it did have a link or two (though no swearing!)… Pity, it took me a while, too!
Oh well, thanks for the heads up!
I approved it – you should see it now.
Ha! Yep, that’s it! Cheers, Cris.
It is true that Christmas trees are not of Pagan origin, although it is understandable why many people might think that an evergreen tree of northern Europe might be more likely to derive from Scandinavian Jul/Yule traditions than a religious celebration from the middle east.
The first record of Christmas trees come from the German Rhinelands in the 1520s and were slowly adopted by other parts of Europe and the world after that. For me, as a non-Christian, one of the great things about the Christmas/Yule tree is that you can view it as you wish. For Christians, the continuity of life and lights can be associated with the birth of the light of Jesus. For those more secular among us, it provides a beautiful reminder of light in the darkness of winter.
As far as the date of Christmas is concerned, that does seem to have deliberately occurred in Roman times to replace a Pagan festival rather than fall on the actual birthday of Christ. The festival it replaced, however, wasn’t hugely old itself, having come into existence in 274 by act of emperor Aurelian to celebrate the ‘rebirth’ of the sun.
Thank you for writing such an interesting discussion piece, Cris.
This is a great tip especially to those new to
the blogosphere. Short but very accurate information… Appreciate your sharing
this one. A must read post!
When I say things like Santa clause being Satan clause I simply mean the whore trying to legalize worship of Satan which is NOT found in God’s law. The law is the law we say of man made law and we must obey so why should we then say we can do Christmas when Jeremiah chapter 2 7 and 10 both Christmas and Easter (Ishtar) are we told not to as it is futile, and abomination or if you like, a kick in the teeth. We are under the law of god until we can live a sinless righteous life by following the law, we become above the law when we achieve that but cannot do as we like because we embody the law. The law is the law. Disobedience is not accepted. You cannot partake of the devil’s cup and the Father’s cup meaning you cannot do that which is pagan AND worship God. If you do but did not know it was pagan you can be forgiven but must not go back to it. Why do you think there will be those who will say, we did your works and He shall say, I know you but, others will come and say, we did your works and He will say, I do not know you, see? 2 groups claim the same thing but those who keep the law and do not do pagan feast days He shall know but those that do them like Christmas He will say, I do not know you. Francis of Assisi brought it back to pagan Rome. In their catechism they say they are above the Word of God that they can do as they like. Sounds more like a possible quote from Nimrod. The fact this was also described way BEFORE Yahshua (Jesus) was even born also therefore should beg the question, why do we say the nativity of Yahshua? wrong. The shepherds watched their flocks by night and anyone who researches knows the shepherds would NOT be out there with their sheep mid winter when it is freezing and damp which would give them hypothermia and kill the sheep no doubt. They left the fields by mid October actually so this still does not add up to what the MANY claim. Just a red flag for everyone. DO NOT go the way of the many for that path is broad and leads to destruction. FEW shall enter through the straight and narrow gate that leads to salvation. That should be enough to wake anyone up surely. Why not the Yule log? because it was hollowed out and a person put in it and set on a pyre to burn. so every year if you have a yule log you symbolize someone burning as a sacrifice. Good cheer to you for that. Well done. No different to the Mayans etc. Can many not see? well that seems to be the case and prophecy says many shall be blind and turn from the faith and also tells you that many shall not let go of man made traditions. Easter or Ishtar both pronounced the same are for the Goddess of fertility and if you follow that back you get to Isis and then Semiramis. Well done again. How many would let a strange old man into your kids rooms especially at night and one that you do not really know? None of you, (you would call the police), and so by saying that it was, not only do you lie but you invite the devil into your kids rooms. You become liars and hypocrites. Well done on your achievements. How many teach their children not to lie but you lie about that? and lie that this weird old man sees all good and bad children? do you know what mas in Christ mas actually means? it is a slaying. well done. Christ actually means anointing. So by celebrating Christ mas you are actually celebrating the slaying of the holy anointing from God Himself which is what Nimrod tried to do. The removal of the holy anointing from your lives thus leaving only one destination for you and that is NOT to inherit the earth So many want to do it because it is all they have known but scripture tells you that to turn from these sins, (breaking the law of God same as the word crime meaning to break man made law), you become an overcomer. But you carry on and see where it leads you. I bet you even the catholic catechism tells you it is not of God. Why do you think Catholics are not to read the bible and when priests actually do they move away from the Vatican and it’s doctrines of men. ANYTHING from the whore of Babylon, the Vatican as described in revelation, and no denying it, must be a lie. Proper research has them admitting it. They add and take away to deceive. Christmas is to deceive the many and it works because many REFUSE to heed the warnings. The idol of Jesus on the cross they have IS the image of the beast. WE ARE NOT TO MAKE IDOLS of anything in heaven on earth or in the waters under the earth. Yet they make an idol of Jesus? any idol is of the father of lies. It means you cannot even make an image of Jesus nor his mother or his brothers and sisters (who are they? he tells you at the temple) nor his apostles. Since the Vatican lies then this image is the beast since the Vatican rides that image making it out to be of God but it is not. The whore that rides the beast on seven hills. The Vatican rides/relies on that image and is on 7 hills. That is the truth. The mark is Sunday worship which they admit they changed which is the mark of anti-Christ. the cross thing they do is also the mark or number 666 or older 616 in Hebrew. the 4 Hebrew letters that add up to 666 mean the following. forehead, hand, nail spike and cross, the Hebrew letter for hand physically is changed to a spiritual hand meaning both groups of four letters add up to 616 or 666 and what does a catholic priest do? get his right hand place it on his forehead, draws down which is the nail spike and then shoulder to shoulder which is the cross. mark of the beast. And we are told the cross is holy? it was a torture implement design to kill slowly. Nothing holy in killing or torturing. The Celtic cross has a circle which is pagan. The sun god on a cross. that is the beast again. a satanic symbol mocking God and His Son. Mocking.
The other thing people need to get right is this so called divide between Jews and Christians. Exodus 12 verse 19 demonstrates God does NOT hold that division and all strangers (those not Jews but convert) and natives (true Jews) are the CONGREGATION OF Y’ISRA’EL. A congregation is found in a church but also means a large gathering of people belonging to one group. The Prophets (Jews) and the Saints (strangers). We who are strangers become Hebrew which is the name of God’s nation. The Bible is NOT a religious book as no where does it say God’s religion. Does God have a religion? from the beginning of His creation never has that been made or stated. No we are a nation. Get that right and so therefore the Torah IS the Magna Carta or your declaration of independence from this world of man. It is the law of a nation made of of natives and foreigners who decide to abide by His law of His nation which holds NO earthly borders. It is the nation’s history and future plan by design. Lessons. Conduct that mark that nation. we have laws in our countries of earth that tell us how to conduct ourselves yet we do not call our nationality a religion do we? NO.
Srangers may not be circumcised physically but we become that in our hearts. Circumcision of the heart and soul. Cut loose from this futile, lawless, world of flesh. Becoming separate.
Okay, I must admit I don’t get a lot of that but on the Celtic cross, a lot of similar symbols existed before Christianity and in non-Christian places such as India. Equal-armed crosses, often contained within or incorporating a wheel are solar symbols, they are nothing to do with crucifixion but the passage of time through the year. The swastika is such a symbol although sadly with much different connatations to most people after WWII.
Your take on the Yule log does not stand up to research. It is not, as you say, a hollowed out log meant for sacrifice (where did you read this?) but instead a large log meant to last all the way through the main feast day and provide extra fuel. Some places burned a little of the log over twelve days. It was first recorded in Britain in the 1600s and nothing to do with sacrifice. Young men brought the large logs to houses and were rewarded with ale. May not be your idea of a Christian Christmas but at least doesn’t involve burning anyone! Sometimes it was decorated, sometimes not but in cold climates its function was largely utilitarian based on the need to have a fine roaring fire.
You seem to have a great deal against Catholics, my friend.
I agree with Andy. We cannot allow our understanding to be that Satan or a pagan or cultist can claim anything in creation, taint it and it is then forever forbidden. That is why Paul said not to inquire whether meat has been sacrificed to idols. What does it matter? Did the meat change by their pagan ritual? NO
Here is what we need to come to terms with and allow our minds to be transformed. We are told not to make graven images. But if we stop there, we’re all in trouble. We have images all over the place. In our homes, even a piece of artwork would condemn us. The rest of the verse explains. We’re not to make graven images that we bow down to.
Another example is that Israel was not to shave their heads when that act is part of a mourning ritual of pagans. But Israel was indeed to shave their heads as part of YHVH’s nazarite vow. The point is not the act or the tree or the log or the day or the piece of meat. The point is, what are we doing with those things. Are we worshipping our Creator and remembering the day His plan of Messiah was revealed to us? Are we filled with good tidings of great joy and choose to commemorate that event? Is the tree, TO US, a representation of the tree of life both in Genesis and Revelation, the beginning of our bible and the end? Is that very tree a symbol or image that our Father used before any pagan or satan worshipper got his hands on it?
Come on people. We should be beyond this immature fear of what a pagan thinks he can steal. He tries. He is obviously successful in many minds. But our conscience should tell us that it is only those weak in their faith that has a problem understanding. We should be sensitive to them but we should also use these opportunities to explain further, what our Father says.
Some good information about this topic!
And just you know, I’m a Christian not a Jew!
We need stop changing the Scriptures to fit our own agend and desires!
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-7k0_IX3Roo
Ha! I’m sure at the heart of the globalist elite is . . . a Christmas tree.
Ha! I’m sure at the heart of the globalist elite is . . . a Christmas tree. And it’s right-hand man is a snow man.
If you cannot lay anything or anyone down in this world, it is an IDOL. NOWHERE in the Bible does GOD command us to worship HIM through xmas. This is a man made holiday, where people are lead by their souls instead of worshiping through SPIRIT and in TRUTH.
While GOD can and does use anything to ‘speak’ to people, HE also expects folks to grow up!
The ‘church’ has absolutely NO POWER because she is in bed (fornicating) with the world!
As Deirdre stated above, ‘can you put it down for one year?’ it is not a requirement from GOD, so what is the big deal? This is all flesh. You want xmas b/c you like xmas. You are a comfortable ‘christian’.
come out of babylon and get babylon out of you!
Dang!! How do we figure out how to live? Christians can be some
Of the wackiest people, so now we have to figure out who we can trust.
Should we throw away our pagan wedding rings? Rename the days
Of the week — the months. Make up a new language? Do away with all
Holidays and celebrations?
What about pretending? Should we let our children pretend?
“No child!!! You can’t fly!!!! Witches fly!!! ”
No pretending, because we should never imagine that God’s rules of
Nature can be any different than what is.
Our entire culture comes from paganism. Everything.
Paganism is nothing. It is ignorance. It has no power over me.
Some very interesting–not to mention relevant–food for thought. Thank you for those links.
Lee,
do you drive a car? buy insurance? wear deodorant? of course those are rhetorical questions but the point is, “NOWHERE in the Bible does GOD command us” to do them. Making doctrine from something the bible does not state is what is called an “argument of silence”. It is dangerous and it is pharisaical………which led them (condemning minded people) to a “talmud”.
When the bible is silent on a subject, we go to how those in the bible understood and interpreted our Father and what the result was. Ecclesiastes is full of instructions and encouragement to celebrate the blessings of our Father. And Israel interpreted Him to allow us the freedom to celebrate and even commemorate (yearly) events that have significance……hence, Purim and Hanukah. Was YHVH unhappy with these “man” instigated celebrations? I don’t read so. In fact, Y’shua was at the temple for Hanukah (John 10) Haggai just may have prophesied Y’shua’s birth (some scholars believe so) as the 24th of Kislev (9th month of Jewish calendar correlates to 12th month of our calendar, December).
As to creating a list of “off limits to Christians” pagan practices, where would that list ever stop? Who would have the exhaustive completed compilation? Which one of us would live with comfort and surety that what we’re doing has NEVER been hijacked by some pagan somewhere in history or in contemporary times? It’s nonsense to believe this way. That is why Paul said to not inquire whether meat has been sacrificed to idols, (or trees have been bowed down to, or wreaths have been part of the decor of a pagan, or stars are a symbol of a satanist, or rainbows suggest a homosexual agenda, and on and on and on and on). What does it matter? All of these things belonged to YHVH before they belonged to anyone else,…..”the earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof”.
So why do “supposedly” mature (grown up) Followers continue to inquire whether our Father’s creation has been hijacked by an enemy for their enemy worship? Shouldn’t we be beyond this by now? Isn’t only the “weak minded” that we should consider and not flaunt our freedom and maturity in their face? Paul CLEARLY taught us that to abstain from certain things (because the weaker person has made it a point) is only for their conscience sake, not ours. Our conscience tells us that trees belong to YHVH. Stars belong to YHVH. Evergreen boughs belong to YHVH and the day He sent His Messiah, is certainly a day to remember and celebrate until YHVH sends His Messiah a 2nd time. jmho
Kevin, one day (perhaps soon) it will come down to just that.
We will give it ALL up and give up our very lives to the one who gave it all.
I don’t rejoice in martydem, but if the choice is take the mark and keep these worldly securities and traditions or lose your life, I won’t look back to all the things I am missing. It is nothing in the light of eternity.
Until then, merry on!
how do we figure out how to live? Dude. “Walk in the Spirit” that is how you live! We worship GOD in Spirit and in Truth. That is the liberating that John michael was talking about.
First come out of all that stuff. Lay it down (at least try one time). And then ask the Holy Spirit what “He” wants you to do.
GOD provides. And yes HE likes us to enjoy life. We stopped celebrating years ago. Well one year our son came over (we are all off on that day, so yes we get together) with his girlfriend. We planned on having dinner together and a big snow came (unusual for our area). We all went outside and had an epic snow fight, built a snow man and had a blast! But there was no tree in our house and NO pressure to buy a bunch of stuff to apease the flesh and no ‘forced’ giving. We give our kids gifts all the time. We celebrate every day. But it’s got to be ‘telling’ that major holidays like eoster, xmas, halloween are big time money makers. isn’t Mammon an entity? yes it is.
Your statement, how do we live is like this: a couple gets married and one of the blessings of marriage is sex. But we are not to have sex with a bunch of people within our marriage or watch porn to get turned on.
Pure love and sincere faith. I used to celebrate xmas and put a lot of effort into it. One of my favorite holidays. But when I wanted to walk closer to the LORD, I started by doing a lot of research into the Bible and history and I also started seriously asking the LORD what did He want me to do. It’s hard stuff, but necessary.
Actually look at hebrew weddings in traditional sense and see if they wore rings. bet they didn’t for it is written ins cripture that rings were binding of a soul in magic and the occult. it shouldn’t matter about wearing rings of you can say your married when asked or approached by someone wanting to chat you up. this is why as people of Yhwh we should be open and honest. the man should love the woman as he loves his Father Yhwh and the woman should love the man as she loves the church. Rings now are seen as a sign you are married but take in the true old meaning it means you have had your soul bound. Now does that sound like Yhwh who gives you the choice?
Let me put it this way.
when asked to tell the truth or asked a question that requires the truth let your yes be yes and your no be no. even lusting after another is adultery without physically committing it. if your honest you will be faithful just as the faithful to Yeshua and Father Yhwh will not deviate from his feasts or law. they will not partake of the devil’s cup and try to partake of Yhwh’s cup. They stay faithful and true.
So with Christmas parents tell young children about Santa, a guy who flies through the air, (prince of the skies) comes down a chimney, a guy you have never actually known truthfully and ask yourself this. would you let a strange man with a fetish for kids into your home when your asleep? then when they are older they realize you lied? is that keeping with the truth you are asked by Yhwh to do? not really. even a lie like that is a sin. the tooth fairy? again a lie. not in keeping with telling the truth. and we punish our kids for lieing? what hypocrites we become if we do that. I was a spiritualist and believe me there are things out there you cannot see but they are very real and also are very tempting but evil but pretending to be good with a very tempting message.
There are many things the Jews know but many do not want the gentiles to know. well the blood is on their hands. The messianic Jews would have the gentiles know and so save who they can but they are few. we need to learn what we can though time is so short now we wont know everything but it will make a difference since we would be turning around and start heading down the narrow path, a path far less traveled hence why it is narrow. The fact if we do start we have evidence of some kind even though it may be small that we are heading the right way and have at least started to come out of her. but once we know a sin we must not turn back to it or we become worse than when we did not know it was a sin. no-one said it would be easy but with vigilance and patience and practice it becomes easier like learning what is right and wrong when growing up. we too will grow up even though we call ourselves adults, to Yhwh we are still children.
Should you stop your children from pretending? “Make believe” is part
of a child’s development. Pretending is altering reality. Reality is where
God has centered us, and where he became one of us to save us.
I believe we can pretend and dream. Even in Imagination you can find
amazing truths about God. Read “The Great Divorce” or any of George
Macdonald’s books.
The above post didn’t come up in the place I expected. I was referring to the “Defending Christ the King” post at 12/24/2013 at 6:52 am.