By Cris Putnam
I am sure most of my readers are well aware that our book Petrus Romanus is about end time prophecy, specifically how biblical prophecy intersects with Saint Malachy’s prophecy of the popes. However, the book Petrus Romanus is much more than a book about prophecy and church history, it is also a book of apologetics. A large portion of my effort in that volume was devoted to addressing issues like the Petrine doctrine, apostolic succession, transubstantiation, the sacramental system, relics, hagiolatry and Mariolatry. These are all Roman Catholic practices which I feel not only deviate from biblical doctrine but contradict and subvert it in many ways. An apologist is charged to refute false doctrines.
One distinction that I endeavored to make clear in the preface of the book was the difference between criticizing ideas and attacking people albeit the division was promptly disregarded by many Catholics. When one surveys the reviews at Amazon.com, for instance, it’s either all or nothing. As of this writing there are 154 five stars and forty with one star. The one star reviews are invariably Roman Catholics who took offense, many taking it personally and none of them address the biblical arguments. The fact that this book was going to address these issues from a protestant paradigm of biblical theology was made crystal clear in the preface. Even more, in that preface, I offered four caveats (paraphrased from book):
We want to extend this invitation to everyone including Roman Catholics. Accordingly, a few caveats are in order.
- First, this book does not argue that all Roman Catholics are un-Christian, our intention is not to “Catholic bash” in a book about the Final Pope, but to sound a dire warning to all.
- Second, we are not arguing exactly as the reformers, that the papacy is necessarily the Antichrist. Even so, it was a definitive doctrine which has been quietly swept under the rug of history.
- Third, we are not setting dates for the tribulation or return of Christ. Let us phrase it more emphatically lest someone misunderstand: We do not claim to know when the Lord will return.
- Fourth, the Prophecy of the Popes has a somewhat dubious origin and the Vatican has a demonstrable track record of forgery and revisionist history. We have simply investigated and followed the evidence where it led. This book is our submission of that research for your consideration.
Apparently, many of the Amazon reviewers did not bother to read the preface before they dug in, (it’s always advisable to read prefaces and introductions). Even so, with all of this made clear upfront, we did design the book in a certain sequence for a reason. We wanted Catholics to read it, so we placed the Malachy discussion upfront and lead them toward the apologetics. We wanted them to understand the incoherence of the Petrine doctrine and the ambitious power mad ruse perpetrated by the papacy. We wanted Catholic readers to be informed about the history of the popes who worshiped the devil and the recent charges of Vatican insider, Malachi Martin, that Satanists were deeply entrenched in Rome. We felt it important to demonstrate the necoromantric nature of hagiolatry and relics. We devoted an entire chapter to Mariolatry and presented a case that the apparition that is usurping the role of Christ by asserting itself as coredemptrix has absolutely no relation to the humble Jewish mother of Jesus in the New Testament. I believe we made a convincing case using the Bible as our primary source. The beginning of chapter 13 states, “We hope Catholics understand that the highest expression of love is grounded in truth. We believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the most fertile mission field in the world” (p. 293). Today, I am pleased to offer a recent testimony as a demonstration of that spiritual fruit.
A couple months ago I received this comment on my site:
Hello! I am a Catholic and I have just read your book, “Petrus Romanus”. This is a real eye-opener for me that I am seriously considering leaving the Catholic faith. I am in a spiritual dilemma right now–which church do I now turn to if this is even necessary? Can I just pray and read the Bible on my own without having to seek out a church with a pastor? Non-Catholics are persecuted in my family and country.
I am going to protect this persons identity, because whether American Catholics acknowledge it or not, the inquisition is alive and well in the third world. I have been counseling this reader for a while now and they are in real danger from the Catholic Church in their area.
I am currently in a confused state not only because of some of the Marian apparitions mentioned in your book. First, the prophesies delivered in Fatima are very accurate (i.e. apostasy within the church, the errors of Russia–Communisim–spreading all over the world, the world wars, etc.). This apparition warns us of danger that goes hand-in-hand with the writings of Nostradamus as well as other Marian apparitions. In this light, how could we say that we cannot give credibility to what it is saying? Can it still be demonic considering that it is warning us to go back to God or else all evil will break loose? I am very open to moving away from Catholicism because there are also many things I don’t approve of (rhetoric prayers, the evil people running the church and its equally evil members, the emphasis on doctrinal classes instead of scriptural classes, the emphasis on tradition, etc.); however, I am being held back because of the ones I mentioned above: the Fatima apparition, the saints’ experiences.
Although this exchange is edited for the sake of brevity, I offered this:
Remember the fortune teller in Acts 16?
“As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling. She followed Paul and us, crying out, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation.” And this she kept doing for many days. Paul, having become greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour.(Ac 16:16–18)
This spirit also said things that were true and even said that Paul and Silas “are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation.” But it was demonic spirit that Paul cast out! I pray you will find the truth. I am very concerned that the apparition phenomenon is leading people astray. It may say many good things and even seem to predict the future. I do not think Fatima or any of the apparitions have anything to do with Jesus’ mother, a simple Jewish woman named Mariam. I attached an article. Also, here is a nicely produced documentary that may be helpful:
We went back and forth a little and I then one day I received this amazing email:
Thank you, Cris. As of today, I have given all the Marian statues, etc. in our house to the local parish. It’s a big step for me. I don’t feel comfortable destroying them so I just gave them away. I still have crucifixes though so I think these should be alright.
Praise God that she got rid of all of the Marian idols and started trying other churches:
The Catholic church is very powerful here. The church controls the government decisions and can even overturn a government! My children study in an IB Jesuit school because it’s one of the best schools here so far so many traditions have been enforced in their students. Everyone is influenced. Last night, when my brother found out that I didn’t go to Mass, his response was, with a wagging finger, “That’s a mortal sin!!!” (I shall go to hell if I die without going to Confession for it). My youngest son has always been so bothered because of the slightest sins; he would worry about hell and dying that he would clutch his scapular and make it into an amulet. He would even wake up in the middle of the night worrying about his heart stopping and forgetting how to breathe. Yesterday, I removed his scapular to give him peace of mind. It’s alarming how this religion could make us, even a little child, paranoid about death, hell and purgatory! It doesn’t make **** any happier either considering the endless novenas and rosaries recited every day to ensure the success of our family business; in fact, *** is depressed and wants his life to end!
I am giving you permission to write about my story and how oppressive the church is in this country. If one isn’t a Catholic in Philippines, the majority will treat you differently (in another area of the country, one has to be Muslim).
Notice, the utter spiritual slavery experienced by someone under the sacramental system. Even a child lives in terror from Romanism. I edited the personal details to protect their identity. “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery” (Ga 5:1). Praise God, that they moved from darkness to light left and are now visiting new churches!
Thank you, Cris! I visited a different church and the experience made me have peace of mind (which was what I needed). Instead of the usual worry-wart me, I became very calm and relaxed all throughout the week despite the challenges at work (last-minute things that would usually stress me out). I prayed more for the things I needed during the week and to my pleasant surprise, I would either receive a phone call/text message or an unexpected answer seconds after praying! It’s really wonderful to see God’s response; it seemed like He was directly speaking to me. I shall be visiting another church tomorrow called *****.
As of this writing, I was able to get a missionary from my denomination to contact this person and they are now working with them personally. I thank God that our book Petrus Romanus is being used to lead folks on the other side of the world out of darkness and idolatry. Please pray that it continues to bear fruit.
While supplies last, I am offering signed copies along with the data DVD containing a library of original source documents.
About Cris Putnam
That is a wonderful testimony; I myself being born into Catholicism am aware of it’s enslaving clerical power. The lord set me free by the power of His Word.. It’s been thirty three years since and I also, looked into other churches..
I spent time in many protestant and pentecostal congregations.. For the last five years I have been unattached to any denomination.. These five years of solitude have been for me a Time of reflection, learning and spiritual progress which included the repentance of many false doctrines..Catholic, protestant, pentecostal.. There is no greater way of learning error than being in the midst of it.. I have look back at the last five years and understand that it was my departure (coming out of Mystery Babylon) and this only happened because I made a choice to be faithful to the ‘Authority of the Word of God’ instead of the Puffed up Clerical theological institutions of man and their traditions.
I pray that the Lord prospers the new found liberty of you friend in the Philippines.
john B
I believe since catholic are the one who stood up against abortion, they have correct and concrete foundation on rock.
One of the visible gift or difference with other group is Gift of The Mother. Therefore one should do your math correctly. When comes on question on Mother Mary, I have one answer she cant be a normal creation like you and me, because Jesus, her son, Is Almighty. If one can understand what is Almighty and Purity (Immaculate) is, then I guess they will find out who is his Mother is. Think practically and get help from God for the wisdom.
She is given to us as Mother by Jesus himself. I guess we must accept as John did.
Praise the Lord.
Sam.
Hi Sam thanks for you comment but I question your logic. 1) There are atheists who are against abortion too. Muslims and Mormons are against abortion. Do you consider them as “on rock” as well?
2) I don’t think there’s anything practical about it… I believe the Mary in the NT was a sinner like you and me. You mentioned “agree with John” – John who? The Immaculate Conception was not even a Catholic dogma until 1854, so it was obviously not taught by John in the NT. According to Catholic dogma, Mary had neither the tendency to sin nor did she ever actually sin during her entire life. This contradicts the NT. Are you really agreeing with the Catholic doctrine that Mary was without original sin from conception and a perpetual sinless virgin?
Cris, I did a double check before I started writing this. I had been told years ago that the name Mary meant Rebel. The name is actually Miriam and Mary is derived from Miriam. And one of the Meanings of the name is Rebellious. It always made sense to me that here is the Mother of the Savior, and yet she is a Rebel like the rest of humanity, also in need of the Savior. Keep Looking Up, Jesus is Coming…Jimmy
James, I don’t believe a person is defined by the name given by their parents. Μαριάμ was a very special woman and blessed, she struggled with her Son’s identity and understandably so! In the end, she knew He rose from the dead and I am sure she is blessed in heaven. But she certainly does not hear the empty prayers directed at her by millions of deceived Catholics. You would have to be God to hear the simultaneous prayers of millions of people, which just proves that the Romanists have created a false goddess.
Yes, there are many groups against wrong things like abortion. But the reason for the opposition is very important. I know the reason for catholics against abortion and it is correct one.
I am not worried about when the dogma was declared. I am very happy about the Immaculate Conception itself. The one God made long before anyone knows as Immaculate. So, having Her as mediator is a big gift.
She knows to take us to Jesus to get purified more than anyone can do.
Are you really agreeing with the Catholic doctrine that Mary was without original sin from conception and a perpetual sinless virgin?
Yes, that tells many things. She is the arc of the covenant…both are Holy.
Thanks for sharing your views.
Praise The Lord,
Sam.
Sam said:
But scripture is very clear that there is only one mediator: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.” (1 Ti 2:5-6) It is a heresy to displace Christ’s unique role. As to her alleged sinlessness the Bible does not support it. To the contrary, it affirms her sinfulness. Speaking as a sinner, Mary said, “my spirit rejoices in God my savior” (Luke 1:46). She was confessing her present need (after her conception) of a Savior. Even more, she even presented an offering to the Jewish priest arising out of her sinful condition (Luke 2:22–24) which was required by law (Lev. 12). This would not have been necessary if she were sinless. Furthermore she thought Jesus had lost his mind “And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.”” (Mk 3:21) Clearly, she was not sinless.
Mary was a special woman but she is now deceased and it is forbidden as necromancy to pray to dead human beings.
“There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.” (Dt 18:10-12)
The Bible clearly forbids attempting contacting dead human beings (i.e. Saints), Mary included.
Yes, Jesus is the one true Mediator between God and man. But I believe what if man fails to reach Jesus itself?. Mary is helping us pointing to his Son, as she did in the marriage occasion…do as He says. So Mary is just pointing to Jesus always. Also in most of her apparitions She says do not offend Jesus as he is offended too much.
I guess, I am not right person to comment on Mary or Jesus, as I haven’t given time for them and I am a sinner. There are people who gave entire life for them. Some of them are Saints in Church and in heaven now. When reading their experience it gives more idea about Mary and Jesus. Read saints books and writings, they have proven that they were right on their path. Google on Fatima apparitions, will give more idea about the relation between Jesus and Mother Mary. Since you have good bible knowledge, you can understand what is all about.
Looks like I am trying to glorify Her in her divinity – others are just trying to do just opposite. Jesus says don’t condemns others….some people condemning His mother itself. Better be careful here.
“The Bible clearly forbids attempting contacting dead human beings (i.e. Saints), Mary included” – She is not dead. She ascended to heaven with her body. That is quite reasonable.
The Church is having proven records. Google for uncorrupted bodies of saints…what you think about it?
When comes to Bible quotes, without context we cant say anything about it. I respect Word of God and His nature more than the compiled and translated bible book and too many versions. There are many thing you and me cant put it in equation, but the passion on Truth and Purity is more important. One way to learn is leaning from people who have proven it, the saints and their queen.
I was excited when Jesus tells sr. Lucia to pray to him through Mary! …she is also wounded as people abuse her Holiness. Jesus didn’t like that
Matt 25 -40. Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me….I guess the meaning of this is very deep.
May God in his mercy forgive all of us for our sin due to ignorance, wrong interpretations and failures. Amen.
Praise the Lord.
Sam.
Sam you aren’t addressing the issue the scripture clearly teaches that there is only one mediator. If Rome’s teaching contradicts scripture why should anyone believe it? It clearly does and you shouldn’t! Instead you try to cast doubt on the Bible… (shame on you)
You have the context, read 1 Timothy, the context is clear enough. Appealing to translations and your own ignorance does not make your case. I have studied Biblical Greek in seminary (and am studying Hebrew currently). We can bypass translation issues by going straight to the original Greek text and prove there is ONE mediator.
There is nothing unclear about Εἷς γὰρ θεός,εἷς καὶ μεσίτης θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων,ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς, (1 Tim 2:5)
This word Εἷς is precise it means “only one in contrast to more than one” a scholarly lexicon supports this:
Thus, Mary cannot be a mediator unless you deny the Bible. You are being deceived and your prayers fall to the ground or in the ears of demons. Praying to Mary is necromancy. She is a dead human woman like all other dead humans.
Actually you are even uninformed about the churches teaching, the Catholic teaching is that she died and then her dead body was taken to heaven later. the Assumption of Mary (the doctrine that Mary’s corpse ascended into heaven) was only promulgated as a teaching orthodox Catholics must believe in 1950. Why did it take so long if the evidence supported it? It was heresy, according to the original Catholic teaching! You say there are records but you simply take their word for it. I looked it up. The oldest manuscript fragments of the legend are in Syriac, dating to the fifth century, and the oldest quotation is a sentence in a homily of Eusebius of Alexandria from the late fourth century. It was then rightfully denounced as heresy and the various apocryphal books were never taken seriously. This so-called history is not reliable as the sources are 100s of years after the alleged events. There’s no good reason to believe it and scripture does not support it. Again it wasn’t even official Catholic teaching until 1950, it’s utterly ridiculous to assert this means Mary is now a mediator and has the attributes of God. Its paganism.
You still not have explained, How can a dead human being hear the simultaneous prayers of millions of Catholics?
Yes, Mother Mary is a mediator for us, that begins when Jesus made her as mother to all from the cross.
More than the bible scholars, I want to follow the path of our saints did. Do you understand this? Not like your guru Luther…following him will lead to the death like him. Human intelligence is foolishness in front of God….you know that?
Studying bible in Greek or Hebrew is not going to help, unless you have wisdom to understand and making yourself holy. What I am seeing is you are accusing the Most Holy creation by God. Therefor I guess you are not reading bible with the help of The Holy Spirit, but some other sprit.
You accuse Holy people to feed your stomach and family? and its your business…Please stop it. Do more prayer and find out the truth. The truth will set you free and feed all of you. Repent and ask forgiveness to God. Come out from darkness to light…first you, then tell the world!
We have Holy Father, Holy Catholic Church, The communion of saints and the Queen to lead us to God. None of your advice is reflecting any of this. You guys yell at church for your name and feed your families. That’s what I see in you now.
I see the serpent under the feet of Mother Mary.
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
The “Petrus Romanus” and associated writings prove to me beyond doubt that the Roman Catholic Church is the One, True, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ. IF it is in error, there is no need for satan to attack/attempt to destroy it as all those souls are already liable to condemnation. Quoting Malachi Martin and other Catholic scholars and referencing The Fatima and other apparitions as evidence to support positions, these people are unknowingly acknowledging the truth. But protesters have always claimed to accept the the Bible as the only true authority while conveniently ignoring the literal meaning of verses establishing the authority and teachings of the True Church.
Rich said:
So Rich I take this means you agree that the Roman Catholic Church has been appropriated by Satanists, because that is what Martin wrote?
Sam and Rich: It is not about catholics and protestants. It is about truth! All you need to do is look at the Catholic church’s past History and see the cruelty, the Blood shed of innocence carried out in the name of Jesus.. There is no justification for the butchery of the inquisition regardless of papal apologies…
I ask you, is Jesus the persecutor or the persecuted ? The dragon is the persecutor!
That church is the persecutor of the saints of the most High. As recently as the 60’s during the revival in Indonesia the Catholic church there persecuted and killed those in the Lord’s work .. See the recorded facts of eye witness Kirk Koch in his book ‘Revival in Indonesia’ .. Another good source of Catholicism’s Whorish idolatry is Alexander Hyslop’s book ‘The Two Babylons’ it is on line… Protestantism is just as guilty on a smaller scale..
The Spirit of Antichrist is the ‘Lofty Religious Spirit of Hierarchical Clergyman’.. According to the words of Jesus, who is the “Holy Father” God or Pope!… Why does not Mary the Mother of Jesus rebuke the Pope for taking on a title ascribed by the Lord to His Heavenly Father?
Another example of this lofty spirit is The exaltation of the Papal throne upon which Pontifex Maximus decrees his infallible judgements upon the world.. The Vatican serpent is presently injecting it’s ecumenical venom in the veins of humanity that all will soon worship the Image of the beast!
john B
Hi John,
Yes, it is about TRUTH. As HE is TRUTH, he will let it glow.
I guess everywhere there was prosecution and there is prosecution in one form or the other. We have to focus on kingdom of heaven not in human.
I don’t understand why the whole world is against Pope/church as if they are clean people. If the organization is wrong, it is our duty to fix it, rather than pointing it. What you have done to fix the issues of church?
I guess the enemy is not human; it is with in human – the evil. We have to fight together to defect that.
Church is trying to put guideline to improve spirituality under pope. The final judge is God not pope. Therefor no point in yelling at church, it is left to the individual to follow it or not. Church never forces anyone to follow it.
Before yelling on it, stop and ask yourself; are you eligible for it?; as it is establish by God himself.
Church itself is having its own issues – due to various diversified people in it. Are you happy to see them as one unit in the name of God, or want to see its falling…that defines you.
Pray for the unity in church.
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
For Sam and Rich and anybody else that want tohttp://youtu.be/Rx8PdvOELvY just ignore the historical facts!
john B
Sam: The unity of the church is under the Headship of Jesus and not the pope Col1:18
All of this clerical structure with some man at the head is a copy of the Luciferian order ” the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” 1JN5:19
The Apostle Peter was an elder in the early church among other elders 1Pet5:1 He never esteemed himself above the eldership..
The Apostolic church had no pope, no cardinals, no regional bishops, no Monseigneurs, no priests.. There was no clerical hierarchical structure.. Churches were independent and not denominational networks.. Jesus addresses seven independent churches in the Book of Revelation.. The institution of clergy is unbiblical, it is a satanic invention in order to control, manipulate and dominate the masses.. such it was that Jesus called the Pharisees of his day sons of the devil! Jn8:44
I admire your zeal to fix it! take it from me, you will never fix it!. I was in that church as a born again believer and I also wanted to fix it just a Luther wanted to fix it..
Understand my friend that there are some things that are ordained not to be.. I have realized that the word of the Lord to his people is not to fix it but to come out of it!!!!!!!!
I sincerely pray that you understand that your salvation is in Jesus the saviour, head of His church and not the clerical institution of Rome..
john b
Cris Putnam and Sam:
I hope you might read this on bible.
And truly I say to you, everything whatsoever you will bind in the earth will have been bound in Heaven, and anything that you will release in the earth will have been released in Heaven.
This tells what is Pope is all about.
Its also in bible that Jesus is the bridegroom and the Church is the bride. That tells what is Catholic Church is all about.
Also, Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Therefore, brother be careful on your ideology. If you don’t know simple keep quiet and pray God to revile. Don’t accuse any one, for that you are responsible in the judgment days.
Also do your homework how Martin Luther died? That tells what kind of person he was. Again, don’t close your mind. If you really want people to go to heaven, ask them to live the way the catholic saints lived, since they have proven it. Since your group is named as born again, you are not born again!
The whole congregation of yours and you are based on accusing the Holy one. Because of His infinite love, you are not yet punished, and he wont if you repent.
@chris:
When you say shame on me…that tells the difference between catholic church and yours. You never follow what Jesus said brother. Be practical. Even Lucifer knows Bible more than anyone do.
I see the serpent under the feet of Mother Mary.
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
Sam you keep dancing around the fact that God’s word opposes what you believe. God says one mediator, Rome says many. That’s a big problem. It’s truth or tradition and you are blindly following tradition to your own peril. As I demonstrated, you don’t even understand the tradition properly. Catholic doctrine does not support Mary’s ascension while she was alive, rather her corpse. You don’t even understand what you claim to believe.
We do need to defend Martin Luther. I defend the New Testament.
“A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.(Mt 7:18–20)
Citing the lives of a few individual “saints” as recorded by dubious Catholic historians is not evidence of anything. History is crystal clear on Rome’s legacy. All one needs to do is look at the unholy carnage carried out by Rome, the millions upon millions of people burnt alive tortured and killed. The millions of children assaulted by pedophiles and the continual complicity in pedophilia by Benedict XVI by covering their tracks and persecuting the victims. Jesus said by their fruit you will know them as an institution Rome’s fruit is horrific. Simply based on the inquisition and its false Gospel. It’s likely the greatest institution of murderous evil in human history. Its no ministry of God that slaughters millions and rapes children. You’re on the wrong side.
hhaaa…i am not dancing buddy. I am telling my believe. BTw, do you know what is faith?
You are talking like a child with out any clear knowledge. If one did mistake, that is between him and God in religion life. Why do you yell at the church now. Today also lot of Christians are killed , are you going to blame Pope for that. you are ..i dont know.
Praise the Lord,
Sam
Wrong again, Sam, 1) there’s nothing mentioned about any pope. 2) the same exact thing said to Peter (Matthew 16:19) was said to ALL the apostles just a little while later, in Matthew 18 Jesus said the exact same thing to the group, “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”(Mt 18:18) Thus, clearly it was not just to Peter. 3) Peter was never Bishop of Rome. That’s all a fiction. Peter was the the apostle sent to the Jews and the book of Acts ends with Paul in Rome, newsflash Peter is not there!
You are wrong Cris. This IS what Martin did to start his group….preaching wrong thing and argue on things you cant solve and justify yourself that it is correct. I have seen million people like you.
You all speak and teach wrong about Holiness and Sin. just preaching the opposite to each other.
What IF I am correct – then you are exactly fighting with God. You accuse Holiness and hence Truth.If you don’t know, just shut your mouth. do some other work to live. you may be 50 yrs old now…trying to define Gods establishment? what you know? Since you know Roman history, that does n’t mean that you are correct. since you have read 2 language bible, that doesn’t mean that you know about God and his will…. childishness.
Write about something which can deliver the people from sin. We may live on earth with true happiness. You are misguiding people from their spiritual life. You will be reason for lost souls due to this book.
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
All this started with the Apostasy of the Church. And before that, with the Protestant heresies of the XIV, XV and XVI centuries. Even today, all Protestants are doomed to Hell because of their unlove and lack of respect for the Most Holy Ever Virgin Mary, Mother of God. For today’s blaspheming Protestants I have the following message.
@ All Protestant heretics, followers of devil-worshipping Martin Luther who committed suicide and who is now in Hell. Thank God there is an everlasting Hell ready to accommodate all of you Satan-possessed anti-Mary blaspheming idiots! Go to Hell already you goddamned bastards and burn forever! By the way… ” Protestants” in Spanish is written “Protestontos”.
Wulfrano Ruiz Sainz — the mass apostasy of the church is correct but your dates are wrong. In AD 600, one of your own so-called “Popes”, some consider him he greatest, Pope Gregory I wrote this:
In English that says “whosoever calls himself universal priest, or desires to be called so, was the forerunner of Antichrist.” Of course, this is exactly what happened – the pope claims to be “vicar of” (= Grk. “anti” ) Christ and the papacy became the seat if antichrist/false prophet that it still is today.
see: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc4.i.iv.iv.html
I do not protest against anything Wulfrano!! who is the wolf here wulfrano?
When you decide to uncloak!. you may receive mercy!
john B
John, Wulfrano
John, you are not protesting anything, but you are with them who protest Gods establishment, insulting Holy ones and live by abusing them. Just think what value these kind of groups have today and what they have done to spirituality. Tree is identified by its fruits. Your founder death tells everything. Weak up.
I have good friends from born again and witness…and other 1000 protestant groups. But they preach to hate Catholic Church and Holy Mother. But we never talk anything against Martin, we feel pity on him. We still stand as ONE unit under Pope as an establishment with help of just Holy Mother and Jesus.
If you and Cris want to contribute to the Christianity by saving souls, I guess you both(all) must read about catholic saints life and follow and spread the good news of them. The writing skill can be used in good way, not like this. These people read bible and they make their own meaning and play word games and they tell others that we are correct and you are wrong.
People like Cris like to find faults by his own interpretation and publish books to earn money. He does want to save any soul. He wants the publicity and money. That’s what exactly Satan wants now.
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
Sam; I am not one to judge Cris’s motives or any other man’s for that matter I have the right to judge what others teach concerning the faith.. Jesus said that he was the way to the Father.. it is not Mary or Luther or any other. What do you make of catholic authors Then who also sell books?
Salvation is in Jesus Christ Acts4:12 it is not in any denomination or institution.. One must be baptised in Christ Jesus Rom6:3 and not the church.. the unity of believers is not under the pope it is under “Christ the head of the body” Col1:18
“When He ascended on High He gave gifts to men…some Apostle and some prophets,some evangelist and some pastors and teachers” Eph4:11
Apostle Paul never taught the supremacy of the pope nor did he teach the supremacy of senior pastors or a ruling clergy above any believer.. prideful men in religious institutions use ‘Titles’ to prop up one another Job32:21,22 An apostle is no greater than any other.. it is wrong to use God given ministries for the purpose of exaltation.. this is the Spirit of Antichrist!…… Tell me Sam why did John Paul 2 place a statue of Buddha on the church alter of Asissi, why does Benedict the pope today attend Jewish synagog services why does pope fellowship with antichrists and pagans Idolatry when Apostle says this a believer should not do 2Cor6:14-18
if you go to my site the photographs are there!
The reality Sam is that the Catholic church with its ecumenical programs is working for a false peace to promote the Antichrist.. I am saying to you, that you must ‘come out of this Whorish system’ because soon Almighty God Himself will send the strong delusion bindingall souls to that Antichrist system.. All who love not the truth so as to be saved 2Thes2:11,12
john B
None of the catholic says that salvation is through Mother Mary. She is our Mother she GUIDES us.
Since almost all country is against catholic church, Pope is under pressure to do thighs he dont like to do. God knows why he is doing like that. These are the places saturn is getting more hold. Read the recent Holy Mother Mary message, she is asking pray for Priest. Therefore, it is clear that church is under attack by saturn. We are praying as per Mary request, she helps lot..that is the ONLY reason we stand as one.
When comes to antichrist, the point you have made is wrong. My take on this is, anti christ is the one who goes against the will of God, his church, his Mother and therefore against Heavenly Father. It (church) was as one, who protested against it IS anti christ. Now, his followers are becoming like anti christ.
Like Judas, Martin did the same. You know Jesus remark on Judas…now Martin followers are doing the same…be careful.
Again, salvation is through Jesus…not Mary. Catholic Church says the same. it is YOUR group makes the wrong story and following Martin and Judas.
Sam; if you think that burning incense or candles to Buddha as happened on the Assisi alter is any different to Mary or saints think again! The Devil is no idiot !
He is a crafty serpent whose head was crushed (defeated) by Jesus! that statue of Mary crushing the serpent in all catholic churches is a misrepresentation of the Truth of the power and authority of Christ and His finished work of redemptive salvation.. Mary has nothing to do with it! she is no co-redemptress with Jesus…
On that cross Jesus died alone, It was (((HIS BLOOD))) and His blood alone that was shed to appease the wrath of God towards sinners Isaiah53:10..
The catholic teaching that Mary shares in Christ’s work is blasphemous as it assigns to her that which God never ordained before the foundation of the earth! 1Pet119,20
john B
john B
If you are having a human heart with mercy, then you will know how Mother Mary would have felt that time.
From my neighbor, I know the protestants are not having pure heart and mercy; therefore they will not identify/understand what is purity means. If you have kid and he is punished for nothing, then you may know…that why I said earlier learn from saints. You cant be a model here. Follow the Saints to become Christ close friends.
Read and truly meditate Sermon on the Mount…and find which one of these is you.
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
Dear Cris Putnam,
I have been reading your book, “Petrus Romanus,” and in addition to being a well researched guide to the historical treatment of the subject of the Antichrist by the Christian fathers, it also seems to take the place of a primer on Trinitarian Protestantism. A great scholarly book, many thanks.
I have converted to Greek Orthodoxy (I am not wholesale endorsing the Ecumenical Greek Orthodox Church here, however, because it is Laodicean, but it has many saints and monks who carry the Christian mission forth in its purity, which is the purity of the unchanging Orthodox Christian teachings themselves). And to the Roman Catholics that makes me a Trinitarian Protestant as well, although I see it somewhat differently.
I would like to discuss some theological issues with you and I will start with the Blessed Virgin the Theotokos.
As I understand the teaching of the early Church fathers on the subject of the Virgin Mary, she not only was NOT immaculately conceived (although conceived miraculously by aged parents), but she HAD to be under the curse of sin in order that Christ should inherit and break the curse once and for all. As the Judean source of Christ’s human nature, she is the flower of the Old Testament system giving birth to the New.
To deny her full human nature to any extent is to deny the fullness of Christ’s human nature, which is the same as believing the Monophystite heresy. That being said, tradition maintains that she was of extraordinary purity and personal holiness, and what is more her free-willed choice to be the obedient handmaiden of God was an historical reversal of Eve’s rebellion.
While tradition records that the Theotokos reposed in the Lord after many years, and that this indicates her having inherited the curse of sin, and through sin, death; it remains an object of reasonable belief that she is alive in heaven and not dead and asleep in the grave. For example, note that the thief who was crucified with the Lord and confessed Him as Savior was promised, “this day you shall be with me in paradise.”
Taking that literally, we have a Biblical basis for the belief that certain persons (Saints) selected by the Son are currently alive in paradise today. Given that assumption (pun), it is reasonable to believe that he would do at least as much for his beloved and long-suffering mother as he would for a common criminal. And upon that basis it must be argued that those who pray to the Mother of God (or any real Saints) are not practicing necromancy.
The traditional Christian form of prayer to the Saints is a request to them to give their prayers on behalf of one thing or another. This type of help is not in vain, nor is it a misuse of prayer, for the Bible teaches us, “the prayers of a righteous man availeth much,” and by definition a Saint is numbered among the righteous. If your grandmother was alive, it would not be flouting the authority of God to ask her, “pray for me to Christ, dear Grandmother, I need your prayers.”
Also, check out this article I wrote on the general subject of the emergence of the AC:
http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16043
Scroll down to bottom of page, see “Vigilant Two-Headed Roman Anti-Christ Eagle.”
Best regards.
Michael K.
Thanks! I am trying to be faithful to what I read in God’s word. The scripture calls summoning the dead necromancy, I don’t see an exception simply because the departed led a holy life, all believers are saints according to the NT. The NT is clear that heaven is full of deceased believers (Rev 8:3), but there is no basis that they hear us or can answer prayers. The fact that many believers are in paradise doesn’t lead to the conclusion that they hear and answer prayer. I don’t see any scriptural argument in your post to support it.
How can a dead human being hear the prayers of 1000s or in the case of Mary 1000000s of people simultaneously? That seems like an exclusively divine attribute to me.
Message from Holy Mother Mary on Sept 2nd 2012. Location : Medjugorje.
“Dear children, as my eyes are looking at you, my soul is seeking those souls with whom it desires to be one – the souls who have understood the importance of prayer for those of my children who have not come to know the love of the Heavenly Father. I am calling you because I need you. Accept the mission and do not be afraid, I will strengthen you. I will fill you with my graces. With my love I will protect you from the evil spirit. I will be with you. With my presence I will console you in difficult moments. Thank you for your open hearts. Pray for priests. Pray that the unity between my Son and them may be all the stronger, that they may be one. Thank you.”
Sam; that which you share about Mary is so anti-scripture..
‘I will strengthen you. I will fill you with my graces’.
The reality of Marian deception is evident in its contradiction to scripture..She has replaced the Holy Spirit and His work in the church and believer… God’s grace is ministered by the Holy Spirit Not Mary The Holy Spirit strengthens us by His power. Every attribute of the Holy Spirit has been usurped this superficial Mary.
Mary is not divine! The Holy Spirit is Divine, He indwells the believer as Christ in us the Hope of Glory Col1:27
You know Sam; all of the Apostles were also under pressure but they never Adulterated their Gospel..unlike the pope…. I am a christian of the same calibre of the Apostles.
I abide by the Gospel as preached by the Apostles as recorded in The New Testament and I’ll die defending It if I have to..
I am no ecumenical propergating Coward.. I lift up the Cross of Christ with a trumpet at my mouth proclaiming to the heavens that Jesus is to judge the Living and the dead Acts10:42 repent ye therefore and believe the Gospel! that ye may be saved from the wrath to come.. That is what the Pope should have done at Assisi…
john b
I am proud that Holy Mary is helping us to clean our self and take us to God.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
You are putting Mary in place of God. This is idolatry.
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” (1 Ti 2:5)
It is the Holy Spirit that sanctifies, “to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.“(Ro 15:16)
Mary is not a goddess.
Sam; you do not know what you are saying… but I know what you are saying!…You are saying that Mary is your sanctifier by her graces that you receive when you pray to her.. That is exactly what the pope wants you to do… Well! I’ll stick with the Holy Spirit which was poured out at Pentecost.. at least I know it was the same Spirit that the Apostle received!…
john B
If you have real Holy sprit, that wont talk like you and your group do. Real Holy sprit will respect Holy ones, especially Holy Mary. I know what I am saying.All saints did the same. i am following it too. do you understand that? Live by example, I guess that is wise.
I am sure that you and your group don’t have the Sprite the Apostle received. 100% sure about it.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
Sam the Bible is clear that it is always idolatry to pray to created beings. Prayer is to be directed to God alone. It’s a choice between truth or tradition.
What we are doing is NOT idolatry. If you go to african and asian countries, they worship the statue itself as god. i guess even in japan. like Israel did golden calf. they didn’t use calf as representation of some god, they worshiped that that itself IS their god. prayed to the created beings…That is idolatry.
Having a representation to point God is not idolatry. They helps you to focus and pray more. like if your son is proud of you, he will carry your photo – it is a respect. When every see that photo, he will think that my dad told me to pray, there for he will pray to God not to that photo.
Jesus said that do it in memory of me. Therefore, making symbols, like 12 pillars are not wrong. there is lot symbols, nature impressed people to praise the lord like we read in Psalm.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
How can a dead human being hear the prayers of 1000s or in the case of Mary 1000000s of people simultaneously? ….:) again childish talk. Death is not the end!
BTW, who are all in heaven are not dead…they are living there…living with the living Father. Grow up cris.
Thats what I said…reading books and knowing history will not make you right.
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
Dear Cris,
Revelation 8:3 reveals the presence of living saints in heaven participating in prayer over an offering of incense to God. These are clearly not dead people, for only the living can offer prayers. Not all so-called Christians are saints, and to believe so contradicts common sense and reason. Many of us who believe in Christ will go to sleep in the Lord without having attained theosis. According to I Thessalonians 4:13-18, these souls will not awake until the Second Coming, when they will ascend to meet Christ.
So right away we have two distinct Biblical categories of the dead in Christ:
1.) Those who have been brought to heaven directly upon their death, presumably due to having achieved theosis, sainthood, a metaphysical union with God, during their lifetimes, and;
2.) Those who have been faithful believers, but did not manage to achieve theosis, and so will sleep until the End. It seems right to ascribe necromancy to any attempt to directly contact them.
It seems like there is some contradiction in reason to see that you believe in the existence of necromancy, and that speaking to the dead in the grave is both real and possible, but yet you maintain a belief that the saints in heaven are both deaf and mute to those on earth. I really don’t understand how either one is possible, nor do I need to know, but if your faith is sufficient to support your belief in necromancy, then mine is sufficient to support my belief in prayer to the saints in heaven.
Micheal, thanks for your reply. I must say I find your reasoning a little odd. If you recall, it I was I who brought up Revelation 8 in response to your statements. When I say they are “dead people” I am referring to the fact they were on earth and they died and now they are in heaven. There’s nothing in that text to support them answering the prayers of millions humans on earth. You are assigning divine attributes to created beings. But it is surprising that you are now arguing that only super holy folks are “saints” in heaven. Because before you made a point out of the thief on the cross. Now you are arguing the opposite. I think its fair to say he was a bare minimum marginal believer if there ever was one! Yet, he went to paradise. This counts against your soul sleep doctrine / theosis distinction.
Even more, there are several biblical references to personal, conscious existence between death and resurrection. Even for unbelievers in judgment. The most extended is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19–31). In that parable there is a definite impenetrable divide between the living and dead. While it was not Jesus’ primary intent here to teach us about the nature of the intermediate state, it is unlikely that he would mislead us on this subject. Again Jesus main point in this text is that even a warning from the dead wouldn’t be allowed nor efficacious.
The second problem is whether it is legitimate to conclude that Scripture passages that refer to death as sleep are literal descriptions of the condition of the dead prior to the resurrection. It would seem, rather that “sleep” should be understood simply as a euphemism for the cessation of life. If “sleep” is more than a figure of speech, that needs to be substantiated, it hasn’t. I just don’t see any scriptural support for your doctrine of “theosis.” Rather, that all believers are in heaven.
Even worse, I think praying to deceased human beings in heaven is sorcerous. Its what mediums do. There is no biblical teaching at all that states we are to pray to those who once were alive on earth and are now in heaven. Revelation, the same book used by you to justify your position also says the following:
John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John, and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel, or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing. Biblically, prayer is always offered to God, and is a form of worship.
More problematic is your comparison between your very tenuous doctrines based on highly suspect exegesis and weak inferences and my contention of necromancy. There is no valid comparison and its not a matter of faith. Its crystal clear. Nowhere in scripture, is it recommended that we pray to the dead, “saints” or not. There’s not a single text anywhere that commends this practice. Yet inquiring of dead is spelled out and condemned very clearly and very explicitly. It is forbidden in the strongest possible language. For that to be overridden there would need to be a crystal clear justification. You have offered none.
Hi Michael K; I have been reading your comments, it seems that the Greek Orthodox concept is similar to that of traditional Catholicism ‘the meritorious work of the saints’ attaining graces for others who pray to them.. Could you show from the NT where the merits of the saints apply to prayer… and also where there is stated that a division applies among believers based on meritorious work.. I take it that this is what you mean by (Many of us who believe in Christ will go to sleep in the Lord without having attained theosis).
john B
Apostle Paul’s words to Timothy..
“In the future there is laid up for Me the crown of righteousness which the Lord the ‘Righteous Judge’ will award to Me [on that Day] and not only to me but also to [all] who have loved His appearing” 2Tim4:8
So; Apostle himself shall have to wait for that Day!
The Day when the Righteous Judge shall recompense all the righteous in Christ Jesus..
‘Grace is the meritorious work of Christ’ and Christ alone.. Faith is the application of that complete work by sinners.. It is not my striving for the perfect righteousness of Christ but my humble submission to His will being perfected in me..
The disciples asked Jesus ” Then who can be saved” ? Jesus answered; with men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” Mat19:25,26. We cannot save ourselves, No amount of meritorious works can save us… it is all of Grace.. To understand this is indeed freedom from clerical demands, rules, Laws, regulations… Why need all this religiosity when we have The Holy Spirit within conforming us into the image of the beloved!!
I shall Pray as the Lord instructed; Our father in heaven hallow be thy Name……. and I shall pray for my brethren until I finish the race… then i shall rest in the Hope of the resurrection from the dead..
john B
“We cannot save ourselves”
Yes, Everyone know that it’s a grace from God. That doesn’t mean that you can do sin(anything) and will get heaven.
My protestant friends they say that you don’t have to worry about sin. Since it is cleared already. So these people promoted sin and made people heart hard…look at the world today…(no wonder I may get email from some unknown person saying that I cant talk about world and people.) Look at the western world …filled with adultery. Like cancer it is spreading all over the world. Just because of adultery many souls goes to hell. This is because of you people –who preach wrong thing to people and say that you all going to heaven, irrespective of what you are doing here. You removed forgiveness of sins from you preaching. If all are saved, then why there is a judgment day?
Remember,. Even today Jesus is under suffer when any one do sin. I know about western society. If you said about sin, you will file complaint on court to shut their mouth.
I can clearly see the resemblance between Judas and Martin. Both ditched Jesus, both died in same way.
Tell me how then his followers will be good? Your father is a Saturn. Therefore you all accuse holy ones. There is lot of religion on earth….what you couldn’t able to talk about them ?
As a protestant, you stand against the God, His word, his Church, his apostle, salvation and holy innocents blood. Therefore, you made your own version of bible. Your own version of God. Your own version of faith. Just do a common analysis. You have no rights to quote bible as you people do. Your name (Protestants) itself says who you are. The crushing of Satan/anti christ is said in Genesis itself.
Don’t you think that you and cris are doing exactly the merchants did in church and made Jesus to get angry. They selected church to do business and hide themselves from external trouble hence misused the church – holy place. You, cris and your group doing the same. Talking against holy people and wrongly quoting bible verses to hide yourself that you are correct. God will clear you all once as he did.
Bible is Word of God, through God speaks to us. Its not a book of earth law to argue upon. You people are doing it. Don’t misuse it. Because one can’t understand it fully.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
Sam: instead of listening to your protestant friends Listen to Apostle: But by the grace of God i am what i am, and His grace towards me did not prove vain 1Cor15:10 He also said “May it never be! how shall we who died to sin still live in it.. Rom6:1,2
Tell me why do you have a confessional? and when was the last time you used it!
john B
Listen Sam; I don’t preach wrong.. what do not you understand about ((((REPENT )))) you think that protestantism is to blame for the sins of the world… Tell me; when the Papal Dogs Tortured and murdered millions of those whom they labelled heretics just because of a simplicity of faith in Jesus! and did not want to believe that money was to paid to the pope so as to be saved… How do you justify that.. You can’t ! But you can if you are a Liar! Popery is the whore who tortured, killed, butchered the saints of the most High.. Now they are going to get every other pagan religion on side to do it again You need to wake up befor it is to late read your bible if you have one!
john B
j
I am not preaching wrong, I am from original group. not a protestant; to make my own version.
Don’t you think that is between God and the pope and his group who did that? Why are you still thinking of that pope. More than you (Protestants) we take that seriously to fix it. that is our call, not yours. If you have wisdom, you will understand that that is satan work. He wanted to split the church and he succeed in it. People from both side dead in may issues. I am interested in spiritual war not in bloody wars. Because we are supposed to work for next world.
Because of that pope, you dont have to join satan group. Even though if you join due to anger, you done have yell at Holy ones. All this puts you in a position you are not eligible for it. Now, in order to justify yourself you keep doing sin after sin by your words. It is putting you in danger. more danger. That is what I am trying to say. Save your soul. there is a judgement.
Tell me why do you have a confessional? and when was the last time you used it!
why it is required – Ask God. he will tell you. when I do , based on situation. when i feel it is required, i do.
As it said, A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart; take good things from Holy Mary Message and all messages.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
The catholic Spirit is not the Spirit of Jesus! It is the religious spirit of antichrist that breaths within her a whorish insatiable lust for the Blood of the saints! History proves it!
She is the harlot that adulterates with Kings to gain their political favour ..
she is a den of every foul bird and unclean spirit!
her Mary is not the blessed mother of our Lord but a deceitful usurper of the Holy Spirit! her Jesus is not the Jesus that the Apostle knew for she perverts His gospel!
her God is no the jealous God of the bible he is the ecumenical God of paganism!
john B
John-
I can clearly see the resemblance between Judas and Martin. Both ditched Jesus, both died in same way.
Tell me how then his followers will be good? Your father is a Saturn. Therefore you all accuse holy ones. There is lot of religion on earth….what you couldn’t able to talk about them ?
As a protestant,(as your identity is) you stand against the God, His word, his Church, his apostle, salvation and holy innocents blood. Therefore, you made your own version of bible. Your own version of God. Your own version of faith and your own holy sprit. Just do a common analysis. You have no rights to quote bible as your people do. Your name (Protestants) itself says who you are. The crushing of Satan/anti christ is said in Genesis itself.
Don’t you think that you and cris your group are doing exactly the merchants did in church and made Jesus to get angry. They selected church to do business and hide themselves from external trouble hence misused the church – holy place. You, cris and your group doing the same. Talking against holy people and wrongly quoting bible verses to hide yourself that you are correct. God will clear you all once as he did.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam
Sam; I have said all that I have to say on the matter.. I acknowledge that you are free to believe what you want and i will not persecute you for it… it is more than can be said about popery !
Blessings to you in Jesus name
john b
Yes, Read 1 Corinthians 3:1-9. Tell you friend Cris also to read that- not to accuse others.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
Dear Cris,
You are a very good scholar, and no doubt your learning far exceeds mine, so I have to defer to you for points of fact. However, I don’t fully understand what you are saying in a few of your passages above:
“But it is surprising that you are now arguing that only super holy folks are “saints” in heaven. Because before you made a point out of the thief on the cross. Now you are arguing the opposite. I think its fair to say he was a bare minimum marginal believer if there ever was one! Yet, he went to paradise. This counts against your soul sleep doctrine / theosis distinction. ”
re: My doctrine and distinction are nothing and I am nobody to have an opinion, but I am trying to learn more about the Biblical truth. I can see how you say the thief was a marginal believer, yet he went to paradise, but in this case we are dealing with what the Bible said, and it does not explain the mystery directly. Yet, for the purpose of a dialog, and not in an effort for me to prove any thing about my doctrine, let me propose the possibility that the thief attained theosis in the “eleventh hour”, that he underwent substantial transformation, when he was repentant in the pain of crucifixion, and in the presence of the Son of God felt deep empathy, shame and pity, and with his very mouth openly confessed his new heart.
“Even more, there are several biblical references to personal, conscious existence between death and resurrection. Even for unbelievers in judgment. The most extended is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19–31). In that parable there is a definite impenetrable divide between the living and dead. While it was not Jesus’ primary intent here to teach us about the nature of the intermediate state, it is unlikely that he would mislead us on this subject. Again Jesus main point in this text is that even a warning from the dead wouldn’t be allowed nor efficacious.”
That passage is a good reference point. In this parable we hear of a dialog between Abraham in heaven and a rich man in Hades ( necromancy ?). Because there is a dialog, the divide is not impenetrable as you say, but rather the saint Abraham is allowed freely to speak across it to those in Hades, and also the saint Abraham appears to have the power to interact freely with the living, since the soul of the rich man is asking his permission to warn his kin. All of this seems to substantiate the ancient Christian beliefs about saints.
Another mystery in the Bible is the appearance of both Moses and Elijah on Mount Tabor during the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-13, Luke 9: 18-36). Clearly this is not a necromantic invocation. Yet here are two ostensibly dead patriarchs from the OT, apparently alive and in person visiting the Christ and some disciples. What would you say was going on there in terms of the dead interacting with the living?
“John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John, and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel, or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing. Biblically, prayer is always offered to God, and is a form of worship. ”
re: This whole line of reasoning seems to turn on the definition of “prayer”. As you seem to define prayer, it is an act of worship. However there is another definition of prayer, and that is merely one of “asking.” Clearly the Bible tells us to ask for each others prayer (as in James 5:13-18). Here James tells the sick and in need to call the Elders of the Church together to pray. In this sense we are praying them to pray to God for our selves. All that we are doing with a prayer to a saint is the very same thing – they are Elders and we are praying (in the sense of humbly asking) for them to pray to God (in the sense of humbly asking and worshiping).
“Even worse, I think praying to deceased human beings in heaven is sorcerous. Its what mediums do. There is no biblical teaching at all that states we are to pray to those who once were alive on earth and are now in heaven.”
re: So, for the sake of discussion, based on the Bible example given above, we have seen general precedents for praying to Abraham, Elijah and Moses, (in the sense of imploring an Elder to pray for us to God as his righteousness is greater than our own), as they have been openly seen to move and communicate between the various planes of existence. How do you feel certain in asserting the dogmas you do in the face of these ambiguities; would it not be better to keep and open mind and maybe to allow the possibility that the Christian fathers such as Saints Chrysostom, Basil and Gregory had a better understanding of the faith than modern Protestants?
Hi Mick,
Exactly, the Saints have more understanding on God and Faith. They are the one to be listened and followed. Not people like Cris or his group.
As said in Matthew 12:35, these modern protestants picks up evil things from evil heart. They study bible not to know God, but to find manipulated errors on Catholic church to feed their tummy.
What modern protestants think is Jesus is like hollywood super hero, he will save all of them. But they don’t realize that He is Holy and heaven is a place for Holy people and these Martin followers cant stay in that Holy place unless they prepare them. They have no idea about Holiness which is the only eligibility to be in heaven. That is the reason they accuse all Holy ones. His grace and blood makes the soul clean/holy in order to get in heaven. How to get it? Follow His 2 commandments without ANY compromise.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord.
Sam.
“the possibility that the thief attained theosis in the “eleventh hour”, ”
1) I dispute the distinction. I do not believe in soul sleep, I think all believers go to heaven when they die and unbelievers go to punishement. There is no special “theosis”. The parable supports this…
“Because there is a dialog, the divide is not impenetrable as you say…”
2) You are not making sense, In the parable, they are both deceased human beings! You keep equivocating on the term “dead”. When I say “dead human being” I mean they died on earth, like Peter or Paul, they crossed over to the spirit realm. Mary is a deceased human being. Necromancy or mediumship is when living humans beings attempt to contact deceased human beings, when I say deceased I mean they have crossed over to heaven/hell etc. The parable actually counts against your position on Saints because contact is NOT allowed and Jesus argues even if it was it would not help.
The transfiguration was a very special situation involving Jesus – he was showing the apostle’s his glory and giving them something hang on to see 2 Peter 1:16-17 – it is hardly analogous to the necromantric practice of praying to a shin bone of a dead woman.
3) There’s not any ambiguity. Deceased (departed from this earth) human beings are off limits! “…or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.”(Dt 18:11–12)
“Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the LORD your God.(Le 19:31)
“And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?(Is 8:19)
See the contrast being made? God or deceased humans? There is a real choice, is God not adequate? Why do you need dead humans when you have God? Do you really think God is so limited?
My main argument is prayer is exclusive to God. Prayer to created beings is idolatry. I challenge you to produce a single passage where we are instructed to offer prayer to anyone but God.
Give it a rest Sam: we all know you are a dedicated catholic… I do not judge you, only what you say… Jesus will judge on that Day!
My assurance is not what I can do for Jesus but what He has done for Me.. He is my Saviour !!!!! No pope, no Mary, no saints.. Only JESUS How I Love Him, My Jesus, my Redeemer .. I love the Lord with all my heart , soul and mind and He knows it to be so Amen!
john B
John, every one knows that Catholic version of Jesus is the only way. Remember he is not going to redeem ALL the humans, but if you follow his commandments. So unless you are holy you are not going to be in heaven. The Holy one NEVER accuses the Holy one as your group do.
I love the Lord with all my heart ..really? if you love God you will love his qualities don’t you think so. By telling I love God, you cant make it. You have to reflect in you!
What you reflect now – protesting God!. The world history will say that You are a protestant.. change that first.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
“My main argument is prayer is exclusive to God. Prayer to created beings is idolatry. I challenge you to produce a single passage where we are instructed to offer prayer to anyone but God.”
re: “I pray you come in to my humble house, good sir.” A formal address used in bygone years by English speaking people. Here the word “pray” is not confused with worship. You seem to be stubborn about the meaning of the word “pray” by refusing to acknowledge other valid meanings. I have repeatedly explained that the Orthodox meaning of prayer involving saints is “communion”. I have demonstrated that in James 5:13-18, the apostle James tells the sick in the congregation to gather the Elders and have them pray over them. This has nothing to do with these people not praying to God themselves, but it demonstrates the need for the combined prayers of the righteous.
St. Basil (329 or 330 – January 1, 379), bishop of Caesarea, wrote in his Epistle to Amphilochios “I accept the saintly apostles, prophets, and martyrs, and in my prayer to God I call upon them and through their prayer I receive mercy from our God who loves all humanity.”
You appear to come along 1600 years later and decide from your forensic reconstruction from documents, what authentic Christianity is supposed to mean for everyone else, to the point where you are accusing someone as great as St. Basil of mediumship, or worse necromancy?
In the history of the Christian Church you seem minor compared St. Basil. You are not a saint or even saved just because you consider yourself to possess the right-thinking Christian dogma (which is really a crypto-Roman Catholic reasoning itself). Where do you get the official title of apostle, to go around accusing the entire Christian Church of the golden age of Christianity of being less in possession of the true faith than yourself? Without them you would have nothing to forensically reconstruct, and without you they yet had everything. T
When people who actually received a living faith from the above mentioned St. Basil believe things that you don’t agree with, where do you get off judging them and belittling them through legalism about their ways? So the Bible doesn’t instruct us to pray to the saints living on in heaven, in order to receive their prayers to God on our behalf. Here’s a few other things the Bible is silent on:
Using the cross as a symbol for Christ,
Going to Church on Sunday,
How to observe the last supper, aside from bread and wine,
How to pray, aside from the Lord’s Prayer,
Which finger the wedding ring goes on,
How to do a proper baptism, aside from using some water,
What a church building should look like,
what exactly to do in church.
Does this mean that Christians have to assume that we are doing it all wrong all the time, or can we rely on ancient tradition as guidance on such open questions? Mostly I argue that you are wrong to denounce your elders’ ways when you have your inheritance on account of them.
Sam said:
This is just dishonest, the elders were alive. Its ridiculous to cite this to justify prayer to deceased “saints.”
You are avoiding the clear admonitions I have cited. It does not take much work to see the very clear statements against these practices. They are not vague, they are not inferences, they require no reconstruction, they are crystal clear warnings NOT to seek to inquire of with deceased human beings. The fact that Basil or anyone else did it does not change God’s word. Isaiah 8:19 “And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?” Can’t you see what God is saying here?
Human beings are not omnipotent nor omniscient nor omnipresent. Why does anyone feel the need to pray to deceased human beings? It makes no sense! To do so, one must have a very inadequate view of God’s glory.
Only God deserves prayer. It is clearly idolatrous to pray to anyone but the triune God.
I didn’t say that. I avoid quoting bible as much as possible, unless it matched the common analogy with in the context we discuss. Because it is said that not to take HIS name in vain. I believe that covers his words too; since he is Word. I am afraid that misusing his word may put me in sin, you people never worried about that. Perhaps, you write book to live on manipulating HIS words.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
The Apostle tells us to be careful that “Your minds should be led astray from the ‘simplicity and purity’ of devotion to Christ” 2Cor11:3
A purity of devotion would entail a single mindedness fully focused on Christ.. A looking to Him alone as “the Author and finisher of our faith” Heb12:2 this would be inclusive of prayer..
The Apostle tell us to have this confidence That “He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the Day of Christ Jesus” Phil1:6 God needs no assistance in fulfilling that which He foreordained!
The development of doctrines by the process of time very often leads astray from the simplicity of “the Faith delivered once for all to the saints” Jude3
It is sin to take away or add to that which the Apostles of the Lord founded as the doctrines of the Faith..
Nowhere; in any Epistles of the Apostles are believers told to shift their ‘devotion’ away from Christ to human beings.. be they dead or alive!
john B
@ John B. You are a liar. He who does not love the Mother cannot truly love the Son.
I agree. Not only john the whole group IS based on lie. Protesting the Truth.
Look at you john, cris what label you have on you… protestants. Wake up.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
Sam says ‘the whole group IS based on lie. Protesting the Truth.’
I am not protesting the truth at all! I believe the teachings of the Apostles to be the truth just as Jesus is the truth!.. I just do not believe that the pope is the final authority and that what he dictates is above the word of God.. I chose the Word of God instead of the word of the pope
The pope is a ‘ false apostle’ because he contradicts the original foundational teachings of the Apostles as recorded in the new Testament which is the word of God.. you should read the NT for yourself ..
In the end it comes down to Popery traditions against “the Apostles teachings recorded in the word of God” 2Tim3:16 I choose the Word of God as recorded in the Scriptures..
john B
It is very obvious that you people do not know the scriptures!.. what don’t you understand about a ‘purity of devotion to Christ’… I am not the one saying it… it is the Apostle saying it .. Wulfrano If I am a liar so then is the Apostle of the Lord
Wulfrano you come across like one who would clap with glee at the innocent being burned alive at the stake by your churches clerical authority.. after according to you any body that is not of your doctrine can Quote from wulfrano “Go to Hell already you goddamned bastards and burn forever!” That shows your Spirit and who your father is…
Sam; how am I misusing the scripture; I have shown the Apostles teaching on the believers devotion to Christ.. why is it wrong that I love Jesus and look to him alone to save me…The word of the Lord says “Ye shall be Holy as I am Holy saith the Lord” so; because i have no devotion to Mary you say i am not holy well it is the Lord that maketh Holy ! Holiness is His work of Grace..
john B
John
“because i have no devotion to Mary you say i am not holy” – NO. I didnt mean that. BUT if you or who ever accuse her are 100% NOT holy. son of satan or martin.
“how am I misusing the scripture” -every where, not only on this blog, your group is doing all over world.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
I must correct my earlier words regarding my speculation about what happens after death. Unless anyone should confuse my personal and trivial ideas with the Orthodox Catholic Christian faith, here is the expressed belief of the Church from the Synod of Constantinople (1672 A.D.):
“We believe that the souls of the departed are either in bliss or in torment as each one wrought, for immediately after the separation from the body they (the souls) are pronounced either for bliss or for suffering and sorrows, yet we confess that neither the joy nor the condemnation are yet complete. After the General Resurrection, when the soul is united to the body, each one will receive the full measure of joy or condemnation due him for the way he conducted himself, whether for good or bad.”
What I don’t understand is how anyone can take the Bible and the other writings and then divorce themselves from the living, historic Church and take a separative stand on a legal basis. Its like, “Mother, you are a harlot, who raised me. So I am taking my inheritance from you, and leaving. And I’m going to celebrate ‘family holidays’ like Christmas and Easter without you from now on. All I need is certain items from your library which Father left there, and then to hell with you. And I am taking a few things from the fridge, so bye.”
Micheal: When dogmas and tradition contradicts with the written Word and A ‘clerical authority’ enforces it upon you with threat, it is no church.. It matters not whether it be catholic orthodox or protestant..
When I read the Acts of the Apostles I see a simplicity calling for a devotion to The Apostles teaching and fellowship, to breaking bread and prayer Acts2:42 I see independent churches ruled by a supportive eldership of spirit filled men assisted by deacons 1Tim3:1-10 I do not see a domineering ranking clergy lording it over a submissive laity. I do not see murderers, thieves and paedophiles wearing holy garments what I am saying here his historical facts.. Mystery Babylon the whore is much more that catholisism it is a satanic religious system of promoting non-biblical doctrines using ‘Religious principles’ contrary the the established foundation of God
This mystery harlot is no stranger to God’s people of every age, they had to overcome her enticing wiles and resist her from age to age for the right to worship the living God.. She is that woman, that spiritual City which has ruled over the kings, governments and souls of men upon the earth through the passage of time..The saints, the prophets of the OT fought and resisted her Religious harlotry, “abominations, and filthiness of her fornication”Rev17:4 ”
Her lust for the souls of men” Rev18:13 cost multitudes their lives as they held faithful to the end..
She pursued their Blood that such in time she became “Drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs of Jesus” Rev17:6 In fact she is responsible for the blood of all that were slain Rev18:24.
All of this she is and she has done by the instrumentality of prideful Men “Clerical authorities” which she manipulated and still manipulates to persecute those bearing the marks of Christ!
Now; I have departed Come out of her system and as can be seen I am among them that oppose her advances much to her anguish.. To her every believer bearing the marks of Christ in this world a Target ans so I am..
blessings
john B
Dear john B,
I agree with what you are saying about the harlotry of some of the clergy. I mainly can sympathize with your ideas about the mystery religion functioning with the Church through Masonry, etc. I just don’t see where that directly applies to the traditional veneration of the Blessed Virgin and the Saints.
It’s not because of prayerful communion with the saints in heaven that the clergy became corrupt, it was from secretly indulging in the deadly sins, and lying and even killing to cover for it. It was from pursuing Satanic Gnostic heresy and the world that they fornicated spiritually, not from calling upon the holy prayers of the Blessed Virgin.
Don’t call the holy and long-standing traditions of Christianity evil, for in doing so you are diluting the message about the real, unequivocal sins you referred to before. We can all agree to call diabolical evil by its name, but then we stumble when place grey areas about best practices in the same category as Satanic pedophilia.
In my view, nobody should force you to pray against your conscience. It’s the part where all traditional Christians come under the anathema of modern ones for the way they pray that violates my conscience. I wish we could focus more on the many points of agreement I have with the thesis of the book, “Petrus Romanus”.
I refuse to be a dogmatic troll, so I will put my thoughts to rest on these subjects and agree to disagree, while seeking the true common ground we all have in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Right you are Michael, my point is not tradition as such.. but only when it goes against the scripture.. I am planing to get the book PR for my dad soon.. He is a devout catholic and I love him..
blessings
john B
To the Board: Life’s only question is, “What will you do with that dead Jew who got up and walked out of that Tomb”..The Gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, if you disagree take up with the Apostle Paul
James/Cris and all bros-
Don’t quote bible to back you, since you don’t know that exact meaning of it. Try to understand the essence of it. Since it is said that not to take HIS name in vain, I believe that misusing his word may put us in sin; I know your people never worried about sin. The Protestants misquote bible and misinterpret and present to people and confuse them – this is the act of anti Christ.
To go to heaven, we have to follow HIS 2 commandments as HE says.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
Sam; If i read the bible, Then I can quote it ! I am not one to distort, add to, distract from the word of God.
There are many Psalms in the bible which the Apostle tells us we should sing as well Eph5:19
All this Catholics can’t do because you don’t know Holy Bible… all you know is what priest tells you…. Pray to virgin! Bible never say this, Pray to virgin.. Ask priest if he know where in bible it says pray to virgin. ask him to show you where Apostle of Lord say this!
Church don’t want you to read bible… God give bible to all for read so you know truth and not lie of devil…
john B
John, I can see PRIDE on you- perhaps the sin done by Lucifer; by sating that you know bible better than others.
Tell me how many books your version of bible having and our version of bible having? why?
who compiled bible first protestants or Catholics? – which is original?
If you read bible properly, you will be knowing who priests are. When you accuse ANY holy one you are doing what Judas did. Perhaps that is your foundation.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
Just as Jesus was nailed to the tree of his own creation. The day is soon to come where every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess Jesus Christ is Lord. Mary will kneel before the one to whom she gave birth. Our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ…. Acts 4:12
John,Cris,and other protestants bros,
Read Matthew 23:13-26. GOD is saying exactly about you all. You people use bible to hide yourself and find fault on HIS church – not to glorify God.
For you bible words are important not God himself or his motives.
Hypocrites, talk about cleaning inside – stop accusing holy ones.
Cris, write a book on how to save soul by Jesus way -sin and repentance- don’t be a hypocrites to show that you know Jesus and his literature and confuse John and James kind of people.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
Sam; you got Mat23:13-26 back to front… I don’t wear clerical cloak of Pharisees… your pope and cardinals and priests do.. i am not accusing any one.. I am stating facts.
blessings
john B
John, read your own previous posts, you are saying I love God, but there is no love in what you have written…all are abusing words… don’t you think that you fit in what God himself says.?
As Jesus says, when you accuse Holy Mary, Pope and Saints, Priests don’t you think that you are talking against the TRUTH and Holy, because Truth and Holy is God. Just do a logical comparison. When you accuse Mary you are accusing the Church itself, as per the quote, Church is where God lives. Think. Every holy things matters. Holy places, holy objects, holy people. Nothing can be holy with out God. He himself makes it. Human cant change the color of their gray hair. All God’s kingdom things are done by himself. Don’t fight with that.
The anger of Jesus, when the church is misused, tells another thing too. These churchs are build by humans mostly by kings for God. But He Himself made a church to dwell – Holy Mother. How much Holy she will be and how much it will anger God when anyone accuses it…think.
Do you think all catholic knows the hierarchy of Pope, cardinals, bishops and priests? How many people don’t know their mother language alphabets? God is God for all. I don’t think one has to get disturbed by the clerical works. I don’t think how they operate – old clerical office like or modern – is matters:- what matters is are we in right track, and the catholic church is established by God himself and it is the right track.
When it started, very few people, now they are functioning in various fields and too many responsible and too many enemies. I guess you dont know the other side of the world. Travel to Asian countries, you will know how Christians are treated and their organisation. In order to manage huge public and issues, they have to have management – which makes the hierarchy…anything wrong in this?
Do you think that there is no hierarchy in heaven? I don’t know. I don’t bother either. But I have heard that there is 3 levels in heaven itself. it is said my protestant friend only. Btw, he never accuses any holy ones and human.
St. Michael is call the Arch-Angel. What is it (Arch) means? There are too many unknowns for us. One cant get an answer. Therefore just have faith. and don’t mislead others.
Church is not run by clerks. Its run by God himself. Even if they are clerks, they are clerks in Gods kingdom and they are blessed. You can be a blessed one too. the choice is up to you. The most powerful thing God has given to human is freedom. One can freely accept him as God and savior or one can freely ignore that too. When a choice was offered to Eve, she chooses the 2nd one – misused her freedom of choice to ignore God, But Mary used the freedom of choice to accept Gods will. Think before accuse any holy ones. Don’t misuse your freedom. Try to understand what is Holy means…that will give you all answers.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
Sam; when all is said and done You believe that Pope is higher authority than Bible — I believe that The Bible is the Word of God on record as The sacred scriptures, and that it’s Authority is above the popes..
So: let us just leave it at that.. you are free to believe what you want and so am I
blessings john B
John, I never said that Pope is higher than Bible. I guess still you got your mindset in hierarchy. The hierarchy is nothing to do with our Faith in Jesus.
1 Peter 1:16 – Ye shall be holy; for I am holy.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.
Sam, what do you think of this statement by your church? “There is one Mediator between Christ and men, the Holy Mother Mary. Mary is the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to Jesus but by Mary.” Reply here.
In fact, everyone, I just posted a considerable amount of data comparing Marian dogma and scripture, please move the discussion here. Comments on this post are closed.
While Sam said,”I never said that Pope is higher than Bible,” the problem is that you live as if he is.
Perhaps Mark 7:13 should be read.. “the traditions of men made void the word of God”. If you where to examine the scriptures you would come to realize, even as Peter did late in life, that the Lord had appointed Paul to reveal the mystery of the church, the Body of Christ
Hebrews 12: (1-2): “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
Here the Apostle Paul is definitely referring to Old Testament saints, which he had just previously exhorted his readers to emulate in their faith. The construction is literal and obvious, that he means that we are literally surrounded by them right here on earth, something he and his readers are “seeing”. Why don’t you see, if it’s in the Bible in plain language?
This is called a non sequitur. All the text says is that they are watching… However, nowhere does it encourage Christians ever to pray to these believers in heaven or to ask for their prayers. Christ prays for his people (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25) and is the only mediator between them and God (1 Tim. 2:5). The Holy Spirit helps their prayers (Rom. 8:26–27), and all Christians are priests with the right of direct access to God (Heb. 4:16; 10:22; 1 Pet. 2:5, 9).
As politely as I maybe. Let It be known this day. No one goes to Heaven because they are Catholic, Baptist etc. There is only one place in all of scripture that I am aware that mentions religion in a good light. The Book of James says “Pure Religion takes care of the Widows and the Orphans”. Religion is man trying to reach up to God. Christianity is not a religion, “It is a Relationship”. God became one of us, a Man
Amen..
Agree. Gods way is full of Love. One should not use religion/relationship to accuse others. We are all different parts of one body.
When I saw Cris book accuses Pope, Holy Mother and Holy one and Catholic Church, I see that he is misusing religion – the relationship with God. That is the point I wanted to say on this blog.
Ave Maria,
Praise the Lord,
Sam.