By Cris D. Putnam
A book with a cover as sensational Exo-Vaticana has a lot of explaining to do and this post will do just that. For Roman Catholics, the year 1978 will long be remembered as the year of the three popes. Pope Paul VI, the pope who forebodingly declared, “The smoke of Satan…has entered the Sanctuary,”[1] died on August 6, 1978. In extraordinary agreement with the centuries-old prediction “from the midst of the moon” by Saint Malachy, on August 26, 1978, the precise day of a half moon, Cardinal Albino Luciani was elected on the second day of the conclave and became Pope John Paul I. Whereas we explained the preternatural circumstances connecting these events to the nine-hundred-year-old apocalyptic oracles of Saint Malachy O’Morgair in our previous work Petrus Romanus: The Final Pope Is Here, we did not realize that these events coincided with a major UFO flap over Rome that spanned the ill-fated rule of John Paul I through the early reign of John Paul II and with a reoccurrence upon his demise in 2005.
Within the midst of the doomed Pope John Paul I’s brief pontificate, numerous cigar-, disc-, and triangular-shaped craft were seen haunting the skies across Italy by people from all walks of life, including Vatican officials. According to the Mutual Unidentified Flying Object Network (MUFON):
At 5:50 a.m. on September 14, people in Rome saw a triangular object for five minutes. At about the same time, people near Florence reported seeing a cigar-shaped object. Early on the morning of the 16th, highway police near Rome received calls about a “luminous triangle” and “a beam of greenish light.”[2]
The early-morning, triangular craft sighting on September 14 in Rome was reported by police, Vatican guards, and airline workers.[3] The purpose and effect of the green radiation beam remains unknown. John Paul I mysteriously died two weeks later, on September 28, 1978. It was time to elect the third pope within a few months.
On October 16, 1978, a few weeks after the UFO incident, the College of Cardinals elected the prophesied “labor of the sun,” John Paul II, to the pontificate. Born and buried on solar eclipses, his life also eerily synchronized with the medieval mottos of Saint Malachy. As the third pope within the calendar year and prophesied penultimate to Armageddon, the spiritual warfare in Rome was at a fever pitch. The UFOs grew more invasive—so much so that the story made the New York Times news service and appeared in newspapers across the US in December 1978.
The Milwaukee Journal, December 18, 1978
Dozens of persons witnessed and photographed a strange, doughnut-shaped craft emitting a beam of green light above Rome on December 14, 1978. According to the article, Rome’s police department corroborated the UFO sighting. More disturbing, two fisherman in a nearby village disappeared, and their fate is unknown. This unprecedented level of UFO activity above Rome coincided with the infamous year of three popes. At minimum, the correlation is suggestive, but that is not the end of the story.
The sole survivor of the 1978 tri-pontificate, John Paul II, died on April 2, 2005, after a long and well-received reign. He probably did more to popularize the papacy than any pope in recent memory. His body was dressed in his vestments and moved to Clementine Hall on the third level of the Apostolic Palace on April 3. The next day, three red pillows were secured endearingly beneath his head, and the coffin was moved onto a red velvet platform to facilitate the various ceremonies and sacraments that were to continue for days. As the pope must be buried between the fourth and sixth day after his death, Friday, April 8 was chosen as the last possible burial date. The Mass of Requiem led by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was scheduled for 10:00 a.m., but early that morning they received an unannounced visitation of the Close Encounter II variety, and this time it was caught on video.
April 9, 2005, at 6:00 a.m.
Raiders News Update featured a story that weekend that explained the above video still:
Indianapolis News Channel 8 released a video taken Thursday evening of St. Peter’s Basilica in Vatican City showing what appears to be an unidentified flying object moving across the upper left portion of the screen. The video, taken from a network feed camera at around 6:00 a.m. Roman time, was filmed as Pope John Paul II lay in state.[4]
We contacted the Indianapolis station WISH-TV about the video footage, but unfortunately, they do not have archives reaching back to 2005. Another Internet story preserves the incident:
Unusual Light Appears Over Vatican
Saturday, April 9, 2005:
The light pictured here appeared over St. Peter’s Basilica. It was 6:03 a.m. Italian time on the morning of April 8, 2005, 6 hours before Pope John Paul II’s funeral. AnUnknowncountry.com reader writes, “I watched this as it happened live on TV. It was awesome and just a little chilling. I feel that this event (sign) is of great significance.…”
Night video is notoriously deceptive and difficult to analyze, and there is no way to be certain that this is an anomalous object, but numerous viewers who called our attention to it claim that it appeared much larger than a bird, and to have an internal light source. It moved very quickly, with a swift gliding motion. No other similar objects appear on the tape.[5]
This photograph alone would justify our cover, but 1978 and 2005 are not the only incidents. In our former work, Petrus Romanus, we suggested a nine-hundred-year-old prophecy may have predicted the rise of the biblical false prophet. He will be revealed to the world just a few short days from now, might they come back? I suggest we watch the skies over Rome!
See: http://www.exovaticana.com/
[1] Malachi Martin, Keys of This Blood: Pope John Paul II Versus Russia and the West For Control of the New World Order, 1 ed. (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1991), 632.
[2]Bob Pratt, “More than 30 Years of Triangle Sightings,” MUFON, last accessed January 24, 2013, http://www.mufon.com/bob_pratt/triangles.html.
[3] Richard H. Hall, The Ufo Evidence—Volume 2: A Thirty Year Report (Lanham, Maryland: Scarecrow Press, 2001), 349. Also see: http://www.ufoinfo.com/onthisday/September14.html.
[4] The following website cites Raiders News Update as its source: “UFO Filmed Over Vatican,” HotSpots, last accessed February 5, 2013, http://www.hotspotsz.com/UFO_Filmed_Over_Vatican_%28Article-13991%29.html.
[5] “Unusual Light Appears over Vatican,” Unknown Country, April 9, 2005, last accessed January 24, 2013 http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/unusual-light-appears-over-vatican#ixzz2Ios0QqGe.
About Cris Putnam
I think all of this is very interesting and part of me REALLY would like to believe that we’ve got it figured out, but something deep in my spirit won’t let me do that. Somehow I feel that this all may be the “slight of hand”. I have come to know that sometimes there are deliberate movements to get your attention focused in the wrong direction, and that is exactly what I’m feeling. (I am not referring to Cris & Tom)
While I do not dismiss all the sabre- rattling going on in Rome, I can’t allow myself to focus TOO much on it. I have to watch what the other hand is doing. I believe prophecy is going to throw us some curve balls. I think some interpretations of prophecy that we have been taught all our lives are not accurate.
My prayer is that neither myself or my brothers and sisters will be deceived. We are going to have to seek God and dig into His word as we NEVER have. After all, there is a lot at stake.
Cris: I have to ask a question that just keeps nagging at me. I promise I DO NOT mean anything derogatory by asking it. It just keeps bugging me and you may have asked yourself this question, also. Why do you think these people are giving yourself and Tom all this “hidden” or “secret” information? Do you feel they may be trying to dupe you? Are they using you to put out info to further THEIR agenda or to try to send your readers on a “wild goose chase’? Forgive me for being so blunt but I don’t know how else to ask. I’ve tried to dismiss these questions when they come to mind, but they always return. I love the work that you and Tom do. I respect you and I do not mean to imply that the two of you are up to no-good, but I just can’t help but wonder what THEIR purpose is in giving you all the material, documents, and the access to Mt. Graham unless they have something up their sleeve. Do you understand?
Blessings,
Sandy
Sandy says; ‘I think some interpretations of prophecy that we have been taught all our lives are not accurate’
I would certainly agree, I have emphasised this before… ‘A lot of what is being taught as truth is speculation’ Problem is, that there are prophecy teachers That don’t know their bible and use verses randomly out of context to justify their speculations… the most distorted passage of scripture by these ignoramus’s is the 2Thes2 chapter.
There is nothing implying in the writings of the Apostle that the Apostasy as it relates to the end-time deception is to be a Nephilim incursion on the planet with mile wide UFO’s over the capitals of the world and a micro chip altering everybody’s DNA… That is as far out of context and injustice to the inspired Word of God.. It is speculation that is being Sold to multitudes in the name of Jesus…
sandy you have every right to question out of the sincerity of you faith and i am sure that Cris would agree.. unlike others whose name i will nor mention.
Blessings
john b
Sandy, we verify all information from different lines of evidence. At Mt. Graham we were talking astronomy and science which is peer reviewed science. We got some inside information from interviews but nothing I am concerned about. Its verifiable stuff about astrobiology and science. The folks at Mt. Graham did not really know who we were when we visited. In fact, you can tour the facility yourself if you like. Go to Discovery Park. and they will take you up there.
I think what got my attention into just how distorted interpretations can be is what has been done to Daniel 9:27!
It is either speaking about Christ putting an end to sacrifice by His death, or it means a “peace treaty with Israel”.
It can’t be both!
Hi BT: I’ll go with the First option.. as you rightly said, it cannot be both..
The futurist view neglect the context of the words of Jesus in Mat24:15
It is obvious that Jesus is forewarning about the destruction of the ‘then standing temple’ Mat24:1,3 and not some Futuristic one.. “Do you not see all these things” Mat24:2 “For when you see the Abomination” Mat 24:15 tie it all togather..
These were words spoken by Jesus to his disciples of “that generation” warning them to watch, and that they did.. fleeing Jerusalem into neighbouring Pella prior to the siege of Jerusalem..
Daniel was prophesying about the desolation upon that Temple and people and Jesus was affirming his words with all clarity…
Blessings
john B
Well said, johnb! I might also add something. BT, The “abomination of desolation” (as most people understand it to be) is one of the major events on their “prophetic timeline”, coming at the mid -point of Daniels’ 70th week, when the man of sin goes into the temple and declares himself to be God. When he does that …………then he is recognized for who he is and the Jews have to flee. That’s what I and MANY others have been instructed all our lives.
I think you and JohnB , and most people would agree that the Book of Revelation gives more details about what happens during the “end-times”………….more than any other Book in the Bible. If the abomination of desolation is…….. what most people say it is ,……….one of the MOST SIGNIFICANT happenings in the end-times…… why is it NOT mentioned in the most thoroughly describing Books in the Bible??????? Do you know why? Revelation was written AFTER……70AD; the year the 2nd temple was destroyed. The other Books where it IS mentioned are written PRIOR to 70AD. One of the most significant “signs” (by their admission) not mentioned in the most detailed prophetic Book. Besides the things JohnB just said, don’t you think that’s very curious?
Another thing; Daniel says : “He causes the oblation to cease”. (sacrifice) Did Jesus not do that, When He died and rose again, sacrifice was no longer required because Jesus WAS the perfect sacrifice; once and for all. Jesus fulfilled Daniel’s prophecy.
MEN”S interpretation has been handed down and most often, not even questioned. Whether by deception or unknowingly, flocks have been lied to, and if people don’t think it’s important enough to check the Scriptures out FOR THEMSELVES, there is going to be MANY people looking for signs that simply ARE NOT going to happen.
Blessings,
Sandy
The abomination of Desolation is in Revelation 13:5 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and the final one is still future because it is connected to the second coming: “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.”(2 Thessalonians 2:8 ESV) <- John B the second coming did not occur in AD 70.
If the abomination of desolation is such a MAJOR “sign” as it is for the most part…taught, why does the Book of Rev. dedicate a WHOLE, one half of a verse – Rev. 13:5; and that half of a verse is SO vague, there are many, many ways that it could fit into the scenario. It is ASSUMED that it is talking about the ‘man of sin’. (an individual) But if you notice the SECOND half of the verse does not even refer to it as a “him”. It uses the word “IT”; suggesting that this is NOT an individual, but an ENTITY.
If the A. of D. is indeed the HUGE sign that it’s being taught to be; first, I think the Book of Rev. would have more to say about it, and what folks “claim” Rev. 13:5 would not be so vague. Just MY opinion: If this is where folks say the A. of D. is mentioned in the Book of Rev.; I think one would have to have a PRE-CONCEIVED notion to make it fit. Try reading that verse WITHOUT already having your mind made up. Can you honestly conclude..that’s what it’s saying? NOT TO ME
The reason it is a major sign is because Jesus said it was! “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),” (Mt 24:15) And we also know that this happened prior in the 2nd century BC when Antiochus IV set up an statue of Zeus in the temple and slaughtered a pig on the altar. Thus, we understand 2 BC desecration as a prophetic type of the future AoD.
Matthew 24:15 cannot be about AD 70, it seems you are drinking the Jesuitical perterist kool aide John B. Jesus connects it to “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.”(Matthew 24:21) AD 70 was not the the greatest tribulation in world history and this is a quote of Daniel 12 which connects it to the final resurrection of the dead. Thus. this is definitely a future event.
Cris My understanding is not from a preterist source.. What I have done is copied Mat 24, Mk13, and Lk21 I then laid these texts on a table along side each other and using coloured markers, identified the parallels between the three texts… That task has given to me the fuller picture and understanding of what Jesus was prophesying.. It is a time consuming way of analysing the tex but I have from it, taken the position upon which I stand.
Here is a brief example compare… Mat24:21 with Lk21:23,24 We see here; that the tribulation spoken of in Mat24 is the time of distress spoken of on Lk21. and Lk21 emphasises it by saying that these Jews suffering this distress “will fall by the edge of the sword and are led captive into all nations” Lk21:24
The word Tribulation is also rightly translated Distress… There is no doubt that these Two passages are referring to the 70 Ad desolation of that generation… The Jews are still presently dispersed among the nations, except for a minority within the Land.
This could not apply to a future dispersion of “that people” among the nations just prior to the return of Christ..
The historian Josephus also recorded much on this issue even mentioning the word tribulation and distress and Jesus. I cannot provide the ref right now!
I have also come to realised that the 2Thes2:4 reference to the ((Temple of God)) which Apostle Paul calls it to be.. and which is also associated with the Apostasy (the great falling away from the faith) 2Thes2:3 could Not possibly be a ‘new temple’ built by the antichrist temple institute Christ rejecting Jews, a temple in which they are by acts of false worship to tread underfoot the Precious Blood of the Lamb of God by the reconstituting sacrificial practices of the Old Law.
Dan9:24 contain ‘all’ that is to take place within the 70 weeks.. and the six points contained in the verse all refer to the Messiah being cut off..T suggest that this verse belongs to the last 3years of human history, specifically the jews is a denial of Messiah’s ministry..
Dan9:26 is referring to Titus (son of the Emperor Vespartian) the prince who is to come to “destroy the city and sanctuary” 70AD That Vs26 of Daniel is the reference implied by Jesus in Mat 24:21
Blessings
john b
Cris You said: ‘AD 70 was not the the greatest tribulation in world history’ I do not doubt that there is a coming tribulation that will envelope the whole world….
Please if you will bare with me……
Let us understand that the emphasis of the text is not so much a world tribulation, but the tribulation to Jews of that generation Mat24:31
One can take the words ‘This generation’ Mat24:34 and make it pertain to the last generation of Jews of the end-times.. but in context with Vs33, Mat24:33 it can only apply to those whom Jesus is talking with. They were to witness The destruction of the temple.. The reality of it is that It happened!
That is further emphasised by the word NOW which concludes the verse 21, Mat24:21
That word NOW is indicative of something present.. and the fact that Jesus says immediately after it “nor ever shall” bars the text of any future greater tribulation upon the Jews..These things which was shortly to come upon them proceeding the Time span of 40 years (a generation) wherein God’s determined mercy permitted the Preaching of the Gospel to that generation before The judgment of 70AD
Blessings
john B
John B
Jesus connects that tribulation with his second coming: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Mt 24:29–30) – This didn’t happen yet.
Plus: He was quoting Daniel 12:“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”(Da 12:1–2) < - resurrection didn't happen in AD 70 In Mat 24:33 "This generation" applies to the generation that "sees all these things" The text says: when you see all these things, you know that he is near, (Mt 24:33). While various events throughout history have been pointed to as the fulfillment of this prophecy, clearly all these things (pertaining to the Great Tribulation) have never occurred. The completion of all these events is yet future. Jesus was not referring to the generation listening to Him then, but many people see them lining up now.
The King James rendering of Mat24:33 reads “So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, Know that IT is near, even at the door”
Other versions have substituted IT with HE ….In such a case the context of the entire verse changes from the emphasis being on the desolation of Jerusalem expressed by the IT and shifting emphasis toThe return of Jesus by the substituted pronoun HE.
Furthermore These things which the disciples were to see was “at the the Door” and not some two thousand years from their generation.
This may seem like a cop-out to bible literalists, but I often find that many bible passages are timeless and therefore can be applied to both past and future simultaneously. Is this that hard to fathom considering the battle against the evil one is the same today as it was back then? Wouldn’t that be just like God in His all powerful wisdom to thread a prophecy through history so that its truth never dies? Wouldn’t that be even more awe inspiring to consider God could do such a thing forcing us into humble submission, so that we lean not onto our own understanding but to trust in Him as we are commanded to do? Not saying it is that with this scriptural passage, but something to humbly consider.
This is absolutely true. In fact I believe the “great tribulation” template has played many times throughout history. In prophecy we call typology. A prime example is the Abomination of Desolation with was predicted by Daniel and occurred the first time in 2nd century BC. Yet in Matthew 24 Jesus specifically mentions it happening again in association with his second coming. Also the prophet Malachi predicted Elijah would return before the day of the Lord. “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.” (Mal 4:5) Now John the Baptist was a typological fulfillment of this “and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”(Lk 1:17) But we still wait the future final fulfillment that matches Malachi 4″ “For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” (Mal 4:1) — I would expect to see an Elijah figure soon.
Hi hopeful ; I have no doubt that the prophecy of Mat24 begun in 70Ad and through the passage of time will have it’s culmination in the final world wide tribulation with the return of christ…. and that we are presently in the beginning of the tribulation… “The perplexity of nations” as Jesus called it.. The fact remains that there was only one foretold time of “Jacob’s trouble” and I believe that it was 70 Ad event
Moses also, prophesied of it in Deu29:49:58 The only time in jewish history where cannibalism occurred among the Jews and the eating of Babies and the weak and afterbirth was during the siege By Titus Josephus recounts Moses words almost word for word.. He refers to it as Jacobs distress ..
blessings
john B
JohnB you are not very familiar with the Old Testament to make such mistaken assertions. There are several mentions of cannibalism during various sieges in scripture. The Assyrians and Babylonians surrounded cities and caused starvation and such desperate measures long before the Romans. It’s a product of ancient warfare because all major cities had walls around them for protection and the enemy armies would surround the city and starve them out — sometimes for years.
But you seem so sure of your pronouncements about prophecy and whatnot and then you say something like “the only time in jewish history where cannibalism occurred among the Jews” Only time? hardly! God said it would happen when the Babylonians surrounded Judah (Jer 19:9) also see Ezekiel 5:10. Jeremiah recorded it specifically in his Lamentations: “The hands of compassionate women have boiled their own children; they became their food during the destruction of the daughter of my people.”(La 4:10) You’re mistaken, but you are right in line with the Jesuits and the pope in your interpretation.
John B. And there is no point in the future you could ever imagine that happening again? Cannibalism and infanticide?
“But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!”
Cris; you are correct I am not familiar with the intricate details of the three sieges of Israel and judah.
I apologise, I should have made the cross references..However, The Moses prophecy is in relation to 70Ad a dispertion among the nations Deut28:64 and not the captivity into Babylon from which A remnant did return.
Hopeful: I am of the view that the scripture “But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!” referred to 70Ad For the Lord also said “to pray that your flight be in winter or on a sabbath” Mat24:20 This can only apply to that period.. Modern Secular Israel does not go into shut down mode on any sabbath day.. Besides the present state has been surrounded by armies for the last 70 years..
please take notice that At Vs15 of Mat 24 Jesus reverts back to the beginning of his prophecy about 70Ad destruction after giving indication in Vs14 that the gospel must be preached unto the end of the earth wherein the scripture you quoted concerning the Woe given Mat24:19
The prophecy is twofold.. !. That which is to come being at the door The destruction and 2. That which is to occur prior to His return.. and of course the historical time span in between associate with the whole prophecy is referred as the Last days Heb1:2 which for some reaso known to God spans up to date 2000 Years.. The Apostles were expecting the end in their days the book of revelations begins with “Things that must shortly come to pass” Rev1:1
Cris, If “anyone can go there” …… why did World Net Daily get refused? They made that statement in an article on LUCIFER that they “requested but were refused”. Maybe you don’t understand my question. You can’t tell me that they didn’t know who you and Tom were …. after writing “Petrus Romanus”. So they willingly give you info, knowing that you were going to present it to the world as end-time deception. Why would they WILLINGLY do that? IT DOESN”T MAKE SENSE,Cris!
It makes sense you just have the facts confused. WND didn’t get refused. Chelsea Schilling just called on the phone, I talked to her too. The observatory complex is part of the University of Arizona and they are clueless as to any of that. Most of the scientists we talked to up there were secular. The lucifer device is owned by a consortium including the University of AZ, the Max Planck institute in Germany and the Center for Astronomy of Heidelberg University. If you read the book it will make more sens to you. These are scientists and most them do believe in ET but they do not take prophecy seriously, so they don’t care about us.
I have really been doing some digging into the scriptures for myself and asking God to open my eyes to HIS truth. I am not doing this for the sake of argument. I simply want truth instead of man’s opinion or interpretation. I have been looking at some interesting parallels. I have more that I want to dig into and I’m not saying “thus sayeth the Lord” on this but I am looking into the people of today.. making the same mistake that the Jews made with something Jesus said.
In John 2: 18-21 the Jews asked Jesus for a SIGN. Jesus told them in vs.18: “Tear this building down and in three days I will raise it up”. The Jews made the mistake of thinking He was talking about the Temple. Verse 21 tells us that He spoke of the TEMPLE OF HIS BODY.
Jer. 31:31-33 talks about the future NEW COVENANT in which God would write on their HEARTS AND MINDS….No more need of a building of stones and mortar. 1Cor. 6:19 tells us that OUR BODIES ARE THE TEMPLE of the Holy Ghost. Acts 7:48 says the Spirit of God doesn’t dwell in BUILDINGS. The New Covenant says that God doesn’t want BUILDINGS, but to dwell in the very hearts of His people.
I am wondering if WE aren’t making the same mistake that the Jews made. Jesus was speaking of His body; they interpreted what He said as being the Temple. Jesus was speaking of His PHYSICAL death. So if we look at what WE may be mistaking as a PHYSICAL TEMPLE, (abomination of desolation) could it actually be referring to something that would bring SPIRITUAL DEATH to His people? If so, what could that be? The one thing that stands out in the Book of Revelation that brings absolute spiritual death is the taking of the ‘mark of the beast’.
How could that be mis-interpreted to be the A. of D? The common understanding is that a man goes into the physical Temple in Jerusalem and says “I am God”. So would it, in the SPIRITUAL sense, not be the SAME THING as some one taking the mark of the beast into their BODY? The “mark” would invade the TEMPLE OF GOD, which is man’s PHYSICAL body and say: ” I am God in THIS TEMPLE”! What would the result be? The abomination of SPIRITUAL desolation.
As I previously stated, it’s my opinion that the A. of D. is not mentioned in Rev. ; but something else is, the mark of the beast. Can anyone find, FOR SURE, the A.of D. AND the mark of the beast talked about as two different things in the same passage? For instance; Matt.24 and 2 Thes.2 talks about an abomination of desolation but NO MENTION of the mark of the beast. Revelation talks about the mark of the beast, but no abomination of desolation. Doesn’t that seem strange to anyone besides me? Both of them – MAJOR SIGNS but never mentioned together. HMMM!
All of these things make me ask the question” “ARE WE MAKING THE SAME MISTAKE THE JEWS MADE”? The Jews are STILL looking for their Messiah because they mis-interpreted the writings of the Old Testament Prophets concerning the first appearing of Jesus and DID NOT recognize the Messiah that stood right in front of them; asking Him for a SIGN. Because of their mistake, they WILL except a false messiah. Do you think you would never be deceived? All it takes is mis-interpreting what the Prophets were saying. Is it worth taking the chance of NOT seeking diligently for GOD’S truth, with ‘fear and trembling’ so the same thing doesn’t happen to us as it did the Jews? Is your eternal soul worth asking some questions and digging into the Word, and praying to God to not let you miss REAL TRUTH. To me, it’s important enough to try to lay aside man’s opinion, which I have been taught ALL MY LIFE. Those men didn’t die for me. Those men are not who I strive to please. Those men are not who I am looking forward to seeing face-to-face…someday soon. I do not mean ANY disrespect to anyone for what they choose to believe. All I have to say to everyone is …….. TAKE IT ALL TO GOD. ASK, SEEK and KNOCK…..for truth with a sincere heart. He will not give you a serpent!
Sandy, putting aside the actual truth of the matter for a moment, you bring up a very good point. Yes we are to dig into the word, but we can not stop there. We must pray that God will reveal the truth in it and not use our own understanding. This is what I think it means that even the elect will be decieved, if that were possible. If left on our own, all would fall into deception, but the spirit of truth will reveal the greater truth. Only those who are seeking God will recieve this enlightenment.
hopeful,
You are Absolutely right. Reading, studying, being a good Berean; is just starters. If we don’t have the Holy Spirit to guide us, open our eyes, unstop our ears, and unlock our understanding, we can read and study 24/7, and all we’ll get is some added “knowledge”. While knowledge IS important, we have to, so to say, “filter” our knowledge by “screening” it through the standard of God’s Word and with prayerful consideration. When these processes are done, what remains of that knowledge is wisdom.
As I said in the final sentence of my last comment: TAKE IT ALL TO GOD…..ASK, SEEK, KNOCK — with fear and trembling and a sincere heart. ALL of these things must be in operation. I FEAR….getting it wrong. I’m speaking of a reverent fear , not a debilitating fear. I NEVER, EVER, EVER want to get comfortable with where I’m at. There’s ALWAYS improvement. God Bless You, Hopeful!
Words of wisdom indeed Hopeful…No man has ever fathomed the mind of God .. for we are but mere mortals having received his favour to grasp that only which he chooses to reveal…Indeed we are to Ask, seek and Knock in all humility desiring no personal gain.. We trust in His Word alone and he knows it and will reveal all truth as is needed.. this I know.. PRAISE HIS NAME…
God bless you
john B
JohnB,
I think you’re probably right about the prophecy being two-fold. I would point out that Matt.24:33; in the KJV and other versions, that the word “door” is plural………..”DOORS”. The version used on this blog doesn’t use the word ‘door” at all. But it does use the plural – “gateS”. So by using the plural, He is talking about two different places in time. “When you see all these things, know that it is near, even at the DOORS”.
Hopeful,
What you say also seems to be the case. That verse appears to be talking about two different places in time, yet the same signs will be occurring prior to both. Why would He use the word doorS? Typo, maybe? No, it was deliberate and for a reason. There’s NO debate (I think) that plural means MORE THAN ONE! This one thing that used to make me scratch my head. DOORS???????? DOORS????????
God bless you both. KEEP DIGGING and remember, this is a GOLDMINE! ~Sandy
I think that Tom and Cris are doing a good job in their studies and work, could they be deceived, well yeah, anyone could, they are just men after all. But, I always go back to the Bible and try to understand what the truth really is. And I’m no Biblical scholar by any means, that is why I listen to people whom I love and respect like Tom and Cris, but they are not the only people whom I try to learn from by any means. And I think they would say that I shouldn’t do that anyway. I can see that God is in everyone’s heart in this chat, you just have to follow wherever you think God is leading you. But watch out, the devil is a trickey one! God Bless ya’all!
When it comes to studying, one of my favorite things to learn is what I won’t believe in! By process of elimination!
Personally, I think Scofield Dispensationalism is a lie, and therefore I disregard perspectives in line with that.
People have learned to disregard “Word Faith” preachers and “Prosperity Teachers” among others.
It’s a bit like sculpting…take away everything that isn’t truth, and what you have left is Solid Truth!
Anyway, that is my hope.
Bottom line…”Jesus is Lord!”
Besides,..isn’t the whole point of Prophecy to let us know God’s providence, not so much as to be the role of a fortune-teller?
In that, we can know for a fact whatever IS happening IS prophecy being fulfilled, and we can get busy with whatever role He has for us here on earth.
(Not that is isn’t fascinating to try to comprehend in it’s own way, but I believe it’s ultimate purpose is just so we can learn to trust in Him, regardless of the circumstances.)
That’s my feeling about it.
BT – Its not so much as “being a fortune teller” but rather an informed believer – God put the prophecies there for a reason – and faithful Christ followers engage in spiritual warfare via prayer and preaching. Paul also wrote, “But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.” (1 Th 5:4) I suggest you prayerfully think about the parable of the 10 virgins in Matthew 25, Jesus seems to put a premium on vigilance in regard to his future return.
Also, while I am not a Scofield dispensationalist those old guys got a lot of things right at a time when most of the church had abandoned biblical inerrancy in favor of theological literalism. They certainly were right about the reformation of Israel when most people thought it would never happen. Take someone like Dr Norman Geisler, he is a great theologian and philosopher and he is a revised dispensationlaist and he has strong biblical arguments supporting what he believes, you ought not be so quick to dismiss a great scholar like him. You won’t find dispensationlaists ordaining homosexuals and such nonsense that most protestant mainline denominations are. I am a progessive dispensationalist because I think it most accurately reflects the New Testament teaching and expectations of the apostles.
And you’re certainly entitled to your opinions, as am I.
I stand by what I said, and I hope everyone would do their own research on the matter, without taking your word or mine.
(By the way,I never said I wasn’t “watching”. I am definitely watching.)
http://www.sweetliberty.org/perspective/jp.html
A very lengthy read, but I’d recommend it to anyone.
…And for that matter..not everyone can even agree with what is happening NOW, TODAY!!
LOL!
Waves tossed to and fro in the ecumenical sea of Babylon!
john b
Just wanted to say that the more i listen and the more i read and re-read what it says in Matthew it seems to have nothing to do with the second coming but was written for the people for that time as that is what it says.. I am still not sure but my dad says that it is one of the greatest deciving beliefs told by churches that there is a second coming ,he believes in the AD70 belief. Just intersting how people interpert or how most follow what they have been told all their lives.
Well, isn’t that throwing out the baby with bathwater, as they say. You may have a view that certain scriptural passages have to do with the past, but you’d have to reject many scriptures out right and the entire Revelation of John to believe there is no second coming at all.
Does it not say that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess him? I must say that has never happened before, so it must happen in the future.
Nothing to do with the second coming? How absurd!
“Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Mt 24:30)
Are you guys even reading the text or just making it up as you go along?
I have been combing over scripture that covers the conversation here on this blog for the last couple of days. Upon re-reading Matt.24:1-3; it’s clear that the disciples were asking Jesus two questions. 1) When the Temple would be destroyed / 2) The signs of His coming & end of the age.
Matt.24:1 – The disciples were showing Jesus the buildings of the Temple. Was it a “futuristic” Temple they were looking at? NO…they were ACTUALLY checking out the Temple.
Matt.24:2 – Jesus tells them that the Temple would not only be destroyed, but so COMPLETELY destroyed that not one stone would be left atop another. What He said must have troubled them because there is elapsed time in between vs. 2 and 3 because suddenly, Jesus is alone.
Matt.24:3 – The disciples come to Him privately, and no doubt, what He had said about the Temple was still on their minds. If you look closely, they ask Him two questions. The first was “When shall these things be”? AND, AND…. What will be the sign of thy coming and end of the age? That’s two DIFFERENT questions. Again – was it some “far-off” Temple that they were discussing? NO – It was the one that they were physically looking at AND the one that was UTTERLY destroyed in AD70. Read it closely. Blessings,Sandy
From verse three forward he is answering the question about the end of the age, it is not coherent to argue that nation against nation etc. was about AD 70 these signs are global in scope and he speaks of WORLD EVANGELIZATION: “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” (Mt 24:7–14)
It is readily apparent that Matthew 24’s scope is global and entails the future second coming.
Cris,
Just “suppose” of Matt.24:3 that the last half of the verse wasn’t there. (this is ONLY to try to understand what they are asking) Say the verse ended with “When shall these things be”…………end of verse. What would you say they were talking about?……..WHAT things? To get the answer you HAVE to go back to the previous verses to understand the setting and context, which is the Temple that would be destroyed in AD70. It’s pretty clear that they are asking two different questions; when the Temple would be destroyed and the sign of His second coming. They ask a 2pt. question and Jesus answers BOTH in Matt.24.
God Bless,
Sandy
You make a good point sandy a two fold question receiving a twofold answer It’s like i said Lk21 gives greater clarity to the two fold answer Jews suffering this distress “will fall by the edge of the sword and are led captive into all nations” Lk21:24
Blessings john b
So,Sandy, it begs the question, who stands to gain from false interpretations and why?
These beliefs don’t come about by accident, in my opinion.
BT,
It makes one wonder why and how this all came about. Have you ever read about “C.I. Scofield and the ‘secret six”? If that is true and from all my research, it seems to be…..the secret six were “Illuminati” who funded C.I. Scofield’s reference Bible. It was called a Bible but actually it was little more than a commentary. John Nelson did in Europe what Scofield did in the U.S.
This was shortly after the turn of the century. (1908 I think) After Scofield’s “Bible” spread into seminaries, Christian Colleges, and pulpits, some of what we call “the highly debated subjects” were adopted and are the belief of most of Evangelical Christians.
I cannot tell you or anyone else what’s right or wrong. I was raised to believe this teaching but somehow deep inside, I had “questions” about some of them. I wanted answers because I am “fearful” about getting it wrong. After A LOT of research, I have found answers to the questions I had. I’ll be honest with you…..It was VERY hard to let go of what had been instilled in me since childhood.
As to “WHO” stands to gain from false interpretations………Certainly NOT the one being deceived. God is NOT the author of confusion. If the ‘rapture’ doesn’t occur prior to the tribulation, you are gonna have A LOT of people who are NOT prepared for what is to come. Some will give up their faith because they were told these things would not happen to them. That COULD be the “WHY” …..that you asked about.
I am not telling you what you should believe, but if you think it’s important enough, like I did; you should do some homework. Ask God to reveal TRUTH to you. Ask the tough questions. Ask why the Bride has finally been purified and is ready for the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb in the 19th chapter of Revelation…….. not chapter 4. If you want to know these things you’re gonna have to dig, and it’s not easy when you realize you were taught wrong. That’s my experience anyway.
All I can tell you is “work out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling”. I think we all should be prepared and committed to God enough to at least consider……….”I COULD BE WRONG” This goes for me also. In my case, I HOPE I AM WRONG cause I’d MUCH rather be “OUT OF HERE” than go through the things that are coming. So I prepare for the worst and hope for the best. But when I’m honest with myself, I know I’m not any better than the people of the early Church. Almost ALL of the Disciples were martyred, Paul was martyred. Am I so special that I deserve better than them? That is a HUGE NO!
Am I saying I don’t believe there will be a “rapture”? Not at all. It’s the timing that I question. I believe we are NOT appointed unto God’s wrath. Most people think that the “wrath judgments” start at the beginning of the Tribulation. They don’t. If you notice, the trumpet and vial judgment are ushered in by angels. The “seals” ARE NOT. that’s because they aren’t the “wrath of God judgments”. I believe the “pre-wrath” rapture. There is an excellent book called ‘The Pre-Wrath Rapture Of The Church” by Norman Rosenthol. i would recommend it to ANYONE who has questions about this subject.
God bless you and I pray that your find your answers………..ASK…..SEEK…..KNOCK! Sandy
Yes, Sandy, I have read about that also, and tend to believe it is the case.
People need to do their own research, like you said, and come to their own conclusions and always be on guard!
The devil loves to twist scripture around.
Don’t worry about hurting my feelings in telling me there is no Rapture! LOL!
It is on the “last day”, according to the Bible.
Is there a different “rapture”? If so, I wouldn’t want any part of it!
I gotta say one thing about you Chris, and that is I respect the way you allow dialogue to continue here, even when it is in opposition to your position. Some of your contemporaries do not, and it makes them look bad, quite frankly, like they are trying to hide something or are insecure about where they stand.
For instance, just last night someone left a comment on a certain someone’s blog, that I won’t mention, and this morning, it had been erased.
All it was asking was wasn’t it odd to be having a Prophecy conference at Pike’s Peak, a site named after the infamous master-mason himself, Albert Pike.
Now, there might be nothing to that that should raise alarms. The place could just have really great scenery! So why remove the comment?
Anyway, my point is,…it is in your favor that you allow freedom of speech and ideas here, and I like that.
God bless you!
BT,
Yes, you are soooo right. We don’t have to agree on EVERYTHING as long as we have Jesus right. Iron sharpens iron! The Bible says that for now, we see through a glass darkly; but someday everything will be revealed. I look forward to that. In the meantime, I’ll keep digging! Thank you, Cris for engaging.
I know the blog you are speaking of, BT. My better half and I used to comment there. It seems like, not ONLY the host of that blog but also, some of the commenters will welcome you with a scourge and flogging if you don’t agree with their consensus about the “usual” debated topics. (rapture, Israel/church etc..) They can’t just agree to disagree or maybe I should say, they WON’T.
I left prior to my better half when I got crucified for some things I pointed out about Rick Joyner/Kansas City Prophets.
Better half left about 5 months ago, after asking the host why he staunchly defended the Book of Enoch but not the Bible.
There was a conversation going on with a woman who ‘claimed’ she walked in ALL the gifts of the Spirit. She said she was in a situation where another woman was depressed, grieving and sick. She went to pray for the woman’s healing and God spoke to her and told her healing wasn’t the issue and to give the woman whiskey, and she did. She told how the woman vomited (projectile) and she was healed.(delivered)
There are topics that are highly debated, I get that, but to me, and my better half, this story is contrary to the Word of God.
We weren’t contributors on this blog for long but on two different occasions, the “host” jumped in with a quickness when someone questioned the Book of Enoch. On the second occasion, he actually said, “I need the Book of Enoch to prove my points”!!!!!!!
We own a copy of “Enoch” and it is a useful tool. I realize that some of the early Church may have considered it as canon, and is quoted by Jude and Peter. But the fact remains; if you believe that the HOLY BIBLE is the true Word of God, then you must realize that Enoch and other Books were omitted because that’s the way God wanted it. Did God make a mistake concerning His own Word? I DON”T THINK SO!
So, back to the “deliverance” lady. When she said those things, my better half called on the “host” in private e-mail to do something about the spewing off of this lady. He gave him a week to respond. So after a week, in an open comment, he pointed out the same things that he said in the e-mail.
He was asked why he would defend “Enoch” with a quickness but NOT the Bible, when it was grossly being abused. It doesn’t make sense. For us, red flags were popping up ALL THE TIME on that blog.
It didn’t take long for the fiery darts to start flying from EVERY direction. That was his last post. I don’t know exactly what is going on there, but my spirit tells me to shake the dust from my feet.
Blessings,
Sandy
Sandy, I agree with you more than I can say.
Cris and all; I am going to do a recapping of that whichI have been sharing concerning my position on Mat24..
I wish to bring it all together for clarity sake.. I am using the King James bible showing from (Mat24, Mk13 and Lk21) that the Tribulation (Jacobs Trouble) foretold by the prophet is what Jesus said would take place within the timespan of 40 years after His ascension . and that it was the disciples of that generation which was to ‘look for’ the fulfilment of the words of Jesus beginning with…”WHEN YE SHALL SEE” Mat24:15 Mk13:14 Lk21:20
All three verses refer to ‘the one and the Same event’ The approaching destruction of Jerusalem….
“The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place” (Mat24:15 & Mk13:14) means the same thing as do the words “Jerusalem”- the holy city- “compassed with armies” (being the “abomination which was to make the place a “desolation” Lk21:20
“The great tribulation,such as was not since the beginning of the world” Mat24:21 is the same as the “affliction” (the same word in the Greek as “tribulation”) such as was not since the beginning of the creation which God created” Mk13:19 , and as “the days of vengeance, that all things that are written may be fulfilled,” the “great distress in the land and wrath upon -this people-” Lk21:22,23
Also, in all three accounts are mentioned the same Woes “to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days,” and the same instructions for instant flight (Getting out of Jerusalem) Lk21:21
But in Matthew’s account we only have Jesus’ words to His disciples to “pray that their flight be not in winter or sabbath day” Mat24:20
This reference to the sabbath, indicate the Time when Rabbinical rules concerning the distance that might be travelled on the sabbath day would be still enforced by Law… something that is none existent within the current state of secular Israel today..
The surrounding armies of Prince Titus was an other sing that would summon their flight.. This also cannot apply to this present generation of Jews, for the word of Jesus refer to “Jerusalem”- the holy city- “compassed with armies” Lk21:20 and not The entire land as it stands presently surrounded by Arab armies..
The words to pray for such timely departure do not of course imply that The Disciples would be bound by those rules of the Rabbinical law even then; but so long as they were in Judea and Jerusalem they would have been hampered by them in their flight should that take place on the Sabbath.
I’ll leave it there.. and end my comments.
Blessings
john B
johnb Your interpretation fits Luke’s more than Matthew but Luke 21 is not the same teaching as Mat 24 and that is your mistake, it’s a common one but a close examination of the 2 texts reveals they did not even occur at the same location. I explain this in detail in my post refuting Preterism here.
Gary Stearman in the current issue of “Prophecy in the News” magazine addresses the “Last Generation”. There is a term Ha Dor Ha Acharon. He states that “It is most important to understand that ha dor ha acharon can just as easily be translated as, “the last generation,” since the word acharon means, hindermost, last in order, last of a series or simply last. It is clear that this prophecy is referring to the last generation-the one that comes back to prepare Israel to bring in the Kingdom Age”. This article addresses the different areas of scripture where this term is used particularly Matthew 24. Also Gary Stearman is very sick and has been for a couple of months. Please lift him up in prayer.
I recall Al Linsay back in the eighties telling everyone that the last generation of jews are approaching the termination of 40 years generational span back in the land and that the rapture can only be imminent.. He was correct to acknowledge that from 1948 to the late eighties wa indeed a 40 Year generation…
Then the 40 years passed and nothing happened next thing 40 got expanded to 50 then 60 now 70 as Mr Stearman and the dispensational and messianic crowd avow..
BIBLICALLY a generation is ((40 years)) To dispute this, is not only marring the prophets and the Lords teachings, but also the scholarly expositors of reformed substance..
The children of Israel were 40 years in the wilderness and an entire “generation” perished Deut1:35.
The time span between the termination of the Messianic ministry and 70Ad was 40years of grace given to the nation. Mat24:34 Lk21:32
Al Linsay and others should have in all humility reviewed their theology and make the appropriate amendments rather than alter the Biblical truth to justify their concept of end-Time prophecy..
Blessings
john B
Might I ask? Who is Al Linsay?
James,
I think John means HAL LINDSAY.
Thanks Sandy, I thought he might be talking about a distant cousin of Gary DeMar, but I wasn’t sure.
yes its Lindsay, he authored the book ‘Late great planet earth’ from remembrance…It’s been a while. I think He still has a radio show…
thank you
john B
BT…Since you seem to have the Rapture day figured out? Might you help me a little with some understanding on how many gentiles did Jesus have any dealings, and why that might be important? Thanks in advance, James
Hi James ; you may want to consider this, Jesus was the gospel in sandals as such his message goes to the whole world ‘Jewis and gentile’… and that message in a nut shell is; (Repent or perish)
Today is the day of salvation tomorrow will be Judgement Day upon Jews and Gentile…
Blessings
john b
Why don’t you tell us, James?
You brought it up.
BT..Cris will probably be busy till the catching away of the Body of Christ from the way things are looking. At least I hope so. So maybe we can cover some Bible in his absence. I was making a judgment when I asked you the question, because you seem to have the rapture figured out. If you count the woman at the well, who was half Jewish, then it is three. If you don’t, then it is only two. Again I ask why does that matter? Once you realize why, then question about things like Daniel 9:24-27 become a lot clearer. Keep Looking Up, James
I’m sorry, James, I don’t see what you’re trying to get at, but I’m not interested in playing guessing games either.
Think whatever you want about “the Rapture”. It makes no difference to me.
I’ve given up trying to convince strangers on forums of anything. I might lay out an opinion or two and sometimes it leads people to question something or maybe it doesn’t. We all answer only to God in the end.
((We all answer only to God in the end)). Wise words indeed! and a ‘Great and terrible Day’ shall it be…..
Blessings
john B
BT….You make a broad statement about the Rapture, and you then LOL. There is a reason that it has been estimated there are somewhere between 35,000 and 45,000 different Christian denominations. If you could comprehend that Daniel, was a Jew writing to Jews about the future of the Jews and the city of Jerusalem. Just a quick example, all throughout scripture the Resurrection is told from Job to the Sadducees about the Resurrection. The Risen Lord took Paul out on the back side of the desert and revealed to him “Mysteries”. A mystery is a secret in the mind of the Lord until he reveal’s it. The Lord revealed a mystery to Paul only “the catching away of the Body of Christ”. No where is the Rapture mentioned until then. The Rapture is a new revelation. It is a part of the Resurrection, like an equation. The Body of Christ was also a mystery revealed only to Paul. Paul says “Follow me as I follow Christ”. Paul says “It is MY Gospel”. Paul mentions “Dispensations” four times in his writings. People like you and John B don’t get it. The only way you can comprehend it is to realize the Lord deals with people during different times in different ways(Dispensations) Jesus came to the Jews as their Messiah, they rejected him. Paul tells us that he blinded them for our sake. He has set them aside for a while. BT..This is the short version…Keep Looking Up
James,…Not that I need to explain it, but I “LOL”ed because there have been countless times on forums I have gone into great detail why I disagree with the Rapture. Sandy was being very gentle in encouraging me to investigate that doctrine further, and I just found it kinda sweet and funny and was “LOL”ing to assure her that in no way was I offended by her comments and not to worry, belief in a Rapture was furthest from my mind.
I don’t need to take up space here explaining why I believe the Rapture, before the “last day”, is a lie.
Anyone wanting a further study on that could just easily search “PreTrib Rapture is a Lie” and go from there.
I have no desire or inclination to believe in such things.
Can you give me one reason why I should?
BT…What I find amazing, and I will admit I don’t spend much time on Replacement Theology Websites if they exist, Preterist or Partial Preterist forums. It just seems that people like you seem to “Blenderize ” the scriptures. Why do you find it necessary to come to a forum which tends to be by all indications standing in complete contradictions to what you espouse. Are you trying to live up to the Andy Warhol quote “everyone is famous for 15 minutes”. So you are trying to accomplish this in the eschatology arena. I wish that Replacement Theology had some type eschatology. God Bless, R. C. Sproul, but he probably could tell you what type flute was being played in the symphony when the 99 Theses where being nailed to the door. He admits he doesn’t study prophecy, but he knows there is no Pre-Trib Rapture. I suggest to you and R C Sproul that you spend more time with Paul. Dispensationalist really don’t spend a lot of time worrying over Replacement Theology. We must be near the target, because we are receiving all the fire.. God made 2 Great Promises 1. Even a Harlot named Rahab knew God gave the Land to the Jews, and 2. the Promise of the Blessed Hope for the Body of Christ. Jesus is Coming, and by all indications very soon. There are many more Souls to be won to Christ. Keep Looking Up, James..P.S. As my Ole Pastor used to say “Sometimes black ink on white paper means what it says” Line upon line and precept upon precept.
Hi James; What do you make of Apostles words in 1Thes1:6,7,8,9,10 That is ink on paper… Please read it very carefully and keep it in context!
Does that to you indicate a secretive rapture or a fiery Judgment?
What about 2Tim4:1 is the Apostle there, Referring pre-trib or post-trib Judgment?
Who invented the words Replacement theology and Preterists ?
What about Apostle Paul’s words in Rom9:6 If “Not all Israel is Israel” then who is the “all Israel will be saved” Rom11:26
Apostle Peter Refers to Jews scattered…., That prior to receiving mercy They were “not a people” 1Pet2:10 Who are the people of God according to Apostle?
Came a point in my life where I had to repent of various theologies… and I mean repent!
Blessings
john B
The above scripture should have been 2Thes1:6-10
James, I wouldn’t have a very balanced view of things if I only read from sites I agree with!
By the way, I think what you negatively refer to as “Replacement Theology” in reality is better understood as New Covenant Theology.
Fellas, Here is my last reply. This is a good starting point for the both of you. 1 Corinthians 10:32 How many people Groups is Paul addressing? Here is wisdom when you can understand this scripture the whole panorama of end time eschatology will start to open for you. Keep Looking Up, James
James; my understanding of it is, That one who is a christian is not to offend anybody by their actions, Be they Jews, Gentiles or other Christians in the church.. 1Cor10:31,32
I am aware that dispensation theology use that (Verse) to indicate that there are Three groups of people that God is dealing with Jews, Gentiles and The church.. But in the context of the verse It is about not offending anyone!
An unconverted Jew is no different to an unconverted Gentile, “all have sinned” God has no favourites..But, Both having been converted make up the Israel of God (the Olive Tree) “a people of his possession” as Apostle Peter says 1Pet2:9
Rom11:32 is indicative of God’s wisdom in relation to the salvation plan fulfilled by Jesus the Messiah. Jn3:16
john B
John B…If a Jew comes to Christ he is a New Creature..if a Gentile comes to Christ he is a New Creature. So what you have are Jews, Gentiles, and the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ was a Mystery revealed only to Paul by the Risen Savior. I believe there were 9 mysteries revealed to Paul..The Body of Christ is caught away at the rapture. What do you have left? Daniel 9:24-27..the Jews in Jerusalem and an unbelieving world that says let’s destroy them. God placed a 490 year curse on the Jewish people. Many scholars believe from the day the decree went out to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem to the day Jesus rode in on the donkey, 483 years have be fulfilled. There are 7 years left, the time of Jacob’s troubles, Daniel’s 70th week, the Tribulation period. For this to happen the Jews had to be back in the Land and after an almost 2,000 year dispersion. May 14th 1948 they came back in unbelief as the scriptures said they would. The UN voted in November to divide the Land and to make part of Jerusalem a Capitol for a Palestinian state. God’s wrath is poured out on the Unbelieving Gentile nations as they come against her. Zechariah 12..Jerusalem the burdensome stone to the whole world..the scriptures make it clear the unbelieving world is getting drunk over the idea of taking her away from the Jews. I know I am jumping around, but the point of the scripture we are discussing is not that it speak of dispensationalism, which I believe it does per Paul using the term four times in scripture. The point is it isn’t dispensationalism saying it, that scripture the Bible mentions 3 groups of people. Unique, a brand New Creation made up of Jews and Gentiles (the Body of Christ), which was a mystery in the mind of the Lord until he revealed it to Paul. I hope this makes some sense..Keep Looking Up, James
James; I understand what you are saying; But all of it is based of the theory of a detached last week of the prophecy of Daniel 9:24.. The removal of that 70th week from the continual flow of the 69th..
All of that which Jesus has done is taken and applied to the antichrist in the supposed 7 year tribulation (one week) at the end of time without the removal of the 70th week from it’s context the whole theology collapses.. Mr Darby must have been aware of that!
Have you crossed referenced the six points given in that verse? I have painstakingly done so.
1. to finish transgression,
2. to make end of sin,
3. to make atonement for iniquity,
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. to seal up vision and prophecy,
6.to anoint the most holy place,
None of this belong or refer to antichrist !
you are free to believe as you will and so am I..
john B
John B,
I think the worst part about that interpretation of the 70th week is when pastors say, “Only the wise shall understand”.
Something very crafty about that that leaves me thinking there is some twisted manipulation going on, because who doesn’t want to think they are “wise”. right?
That scripture from Daniel is such a good indicator of how Dispensationalist teaching has deviated from all past understandings. I’m amazed at the way it has taken hold.
WOW, Just from being a “fly on the wall” for the last few exchanges brought to mind several scriptures. The first one being.. Is. 5:21/Proverbs 3:7/1Cor.1:25/1Cor.3:19. HERE IS WISDOM: ” The FEAR OF THE LORD is the BEGINNING of wisdom”.( Proverbs 1:7) The fact of the matter is…no matter HOW wise WE THINK WE ARE; God is laughing. I have been the fly on the wall….. laughing, and I’m CERTAINLY not God. I bet He is rolling on the floor!
What I would like to point out is that the Scribes and the Pharisees in Jesus day were extremely learned when it came to the scriptures. They were wise in their own eyes, but they STILL missed Jesus. Standing right in front of them and in ALL THEIR WISDOM – they missed HIM. Because they were “wise in their own eyes”; they will except the wrong guy. (antichrist) There is a danger in being wise in your own eyes. I think one thing that may be an indication that the process of wisdom has begun is when someone is HUMBLE enough to say, “I don’t know it all and there’s ALWAYS more to learn”
BT, You stated that I was being “gentle” with you, and you were right, I was. Do you know why? Because it’s been my experience that when you talk to most pre-trib believers, they are the most confrontational and at that point, I didn’t know where you stood on the subject. So I was tip-toeing. Why they get confrontational, I don’t know unless they aren’t so sure..themselves, and they lash out.
I have gone down that road too many times and find the ONLY thing that happens is — tempers flare. Only the Holy Spirit can do the work . Paul is another who “knew it all” until he started for Damascus. One visit from Jesus IS ENOUGH.
My worry is this: If the pre-trib IS wrong, look how it is STAUNCHLY defended. A scripture comes to mind from 2Thes.2: ” BECAUSE THEY LOVED NOT THE TRUTH, He causes great delusion, that they should believe a lie”. This makes me sad and it also makes me want to find out EXACTLY, what the truth is. We can’t love the truth if we don’t know what it is. That’s where the fear of the Lord comes in.
Blessings,
Sandy
Hi Sandy,
I appreciate the way you were handling a delicate topic. I, too, have seen the firestorm that subject can ignite.
When they refer to the Rapture as their “blessed hope”, I also wonder what becomes of their hope if the Rapture does not occur as they perceive it will come.
I also think there’s a little bit of pride in not wanting to realize that even the most well-meaning Christians can be taken in by a clever lie. If they find out the Rapture theory is a lie, then what of everything else those same preachers has told them? Doesn’t all credibility begin to falter at that point?
That’s why I feel the need to search out all viewpoints on a subject and hope and pray God is pointing me in the right direction. I have been wrong a few times, and even that has been beneficial, and humbling as well! I’ve gone back to people I told things to earlier and had to tell them I goofed up! Maybe they won’t be so apt to trust me again in the future now? I don’t know.
Early on when I started looking at End Times scenarios, I believed what was said about the “Jews being God’s timeclock”…”regathered in 1948”,..etc,…but after reading countless reasons why not to believe that, I can no longer stand by that interpretation. I don’t lash out at those who do, but would try to illustrate my reasons and leave it at that. However, my experience is that I will be called an “antisemitic troll” and that the “enemy” must have sent me! (Rather than seeing me as a concerned sister in Christ who likes to weigh all the evidence.) The minute you criticize certain talking points, the arrows start flying, and suddenly one is just being “hateful and divisive” for questioning the standard narrative.
I sure don’t have it “all” figured out! LOL! Chances are I have more questions now that I ever had, so, bottom line for me…”Jesus is Lord” and I pray for the wisdom just to make it through today!
Nice talking to you, by the way. 🙂
Sandy:I believe it is as you said above; Unless we are willing to “seek, ask and Knock” God remains quiet.. The problem as I see it, is that many ask the pastor… not implying that pastors have no such duty of informing churches, however; they do have an accountable responsibility to ensure that truth prevails..
But often time it is the flavour of theological interpretations that is passed on.. That is why there is so much contradiction among the Body..
We all have the God given right to Question Authority, specifically as it relates to the issues Life and Death.
There is such a thing as purity of doctrine and that is just as important as righteous living. We must always beware of those who elevate their authority to the point of unquestionable infallibility..
Blessings
john b
Also, it doesn’t make any sense to me, how only Dispensationalism removes that 70th week from the 69th.
Without a time machine, how are we supposed to believe this is possible? Clever interpretation to suit some hidden agenda or just “new revelation”?
Makes me wonder!
John B…One more thought, during this Dispensation, the Gospel… 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is being preached to the Jew and Gentile alike. There is no difference in Christ, but what people fail to realize is that the Lord made promises to the Jews (Israel) as a Nation. So he deals with them on an individual basis (the preaching of the Cross) and on a national basis (that a physical King will one day sit on the Throne of David). He will return after they (the nation) goes through the Tribulation. Israel is in the process of becoming the Head of the Nations, but there is a terrible price to be paid.. Keep Looking Up, James
James; most of us will probably be looking down as our heads roll… I am prepared for the worse… Are you?
Blessings to you
john B
JohnB,
About Dan. 9:27 – “He shall confirm a covenant with MANY for one week and in the midst be cut off, and shall cause the sacrifice to cease”. Notice that word MANY.
Now go to Matt. 26:28….setting is the Last Supper. Taking the cup – He said: ” This is the new Covenant of MY Blood which is shed for MANY for the remission of sins”.
This is the fulfillment of Dan. 9:27. Look at the words. You have the New Covenant. Both use the word “MANY”. Daniel says “causes the sacrifice to cease”; Matthew says His Blood would be shed FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, therefore putting an end to the need for sacrifice. Also, in the midst of the ‘week’ He would be cut off. Jesus earthly ministry ended at 3 – 1/2 yrs. 3-1/2 is “in the midst” of 7.
You are right, many people think this is the A/C, here in Daniel. It’s the only way to make the rest of their puzzle fit, if you can call it a fit. Way too many holes open up.
Blessings,
Sandy
Also, I think there is a reasonable argument that could be made as to WHO is being referred to as “Daniel’s people”, or “thy people”. Look at Dan. 12:1. According to that verse, Daniels’ people are those whose names are written in ‘the book’. To me that’s saying if you are a child of God, you ARE Daniels’ people; whether you are Jew or Gentile. Do you guys see that?
Sandy
Excellent, reasonable it is indeed..Praise the Lord, Amen..Good observation… In the light of The Apostles teaching I agree, That the “Olive Tree” of God’s possession are those written in the book of Life His people composed of Jews and gentiles both grafted in the one Tree…
Blessings
john B
JohnB, It just hit me. We have always been told that Micheal, the Archangel is the protector of the Nation of Israel, but according to Dan. 12:1, he would be the protector of everyone whose names were written in the Book……..or the “Holy Nation” that it mentions in 1 Peter 2:9 – a royal priesthood; an “HOLY NATION”! WOW, the children of God really are their own Nation, and Micheal is our protective Angel. Double-WOW!
Blessings,
Sandy
John B..We will leave it at the point of agree to disagree. My last response of 1 Corinthians 10:32 is I feel a wonderful example of why neither side will give. The scripture addresses three groups of people, but without admitting that it does, you place a label on it and say “that is what dispensationlist say”. No, John that is what the Apostle Paul wrote under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Body of Christ is different than Jews and Gentiles. Regardless of which way the correct understanding is about Daniel 9:24-27..Daniel was a Jew writing about the 490 years concerning the Jewish people and the city of Jerusalem. The Body of Christ is not mentioned in that area of scripture. The Body was revealed to Paul. A mystery. Throughout history whenever a country prepares for war with another “they call their Ambassadors home”. The Bible says in 2 Corinthians 5:20 that the Body of Christ are Ambassadors of Christ. The Apostle Paul tells us in scripture “when they say peace and safety sudden destruction comes upon them”. The them ain’t US. The day is coming when the Lamb and the Father’s Wrath will be poured out on this Christ rejecting world. There are many trials and tribulations in this world, but there is a time period coming on this world (perilous times, like which have never been) spoken of in the OT and NT, when his wrath is poured out. The Wrath that was intended for James was placed on Christ at the Cross, and that is hard for me to accept, but it is true. The Apostle Paul describes a time when the Ambassadors for Christ will be Caught Up. In the late 50’s and early 60’s my father who loved prophecy laid out biblical time markers coming down the road. It is reading like a road map. He told me I would live long enough to see all the armies of the world gather to take Jerusalem away from the Jewish people. I remember the day in 1967 where I saw the now famous photo of the Jewish military praying at the wailing wall. They had not been there for nearly 2,000 years. It dawned on me, wait my father tells me that I will live long enough to see all the armies gather to take Jerusalem away from the Jewish people. For the armies to gather to take her away they had to possess her again. My father wasn’t that smart, how did he know several years in advance? He knew his Bible. Jerusalem is becoming the “Cup of Trembling to the Whole World”. We are witnesses to the world preparing for many wars in the Middle East. Ezekiel 38-39 describe a latter day invasion of the Land of Israel. Most people aren’t aware that in Ezekiel 38:5 Persia is listed as one of the end time nations in the attack. Persia changed their name to Iran in 1935. Sometimes John facts on the ground are just that facts. I could continue, but I am through…Keep Looking Up, James
John B…I was listening to an internet program earlier where they played a 4-5 minute snippet of Jacob Prasch of Moriel Ministries, who had been interviewed yesterday (3-4-2013) on the Trunews program with Rick Wiles. I went and listened to the full interview. It is about President Obama’s upcoming trip to Jerusalem. With the information that I wrote to you earlier, you and whoever else might go and listen. Keep Looking Up, James
Absurd! The thought that a modern TV station (WISH-TV) would NOT keep aun archive of an alleged UFO sighting over the Vatican at precisely the time when Pope John Paul II died … is outlandish & rediculous. Come on, people! You are being swept up in a science fictional mania that will soon be revealed for what it is. Will you then repent and admit your rebellion … or will you persist in your deception. The kings of the earth did not meet in Rome in March.
Your interpretation of Revelation is abominable.
I actually called the parent production company personally and they really do not keep archives that far back, I was told this before they even knew what the story was about. If you remember back in 2005 hard drives were still expensive. So you are just mistaken.
I never said anyone met in March so not sure what you are talking about. I wonder if you even know what my interpretation of Revelation actually is?
Rebellion from what? Romanism? …you can’t rebel from a cult you were never with.