I wanted to post this because it is a really good deal to get access to a conference like this which occurred only a few days ago. The below is from Joel Rosenberg.
Today, unfortunately, there are millions of people who believe that God has rejected Israel and the Jewish people. Some don’t believe the Old Testament Scriptures ever indicated that God sovereignly chose Israel to bless her, and chose to make her a blessing to all the families of the earth, and that He also sovereignly promised to give the Jewish people the land of Israel as an “everlasting possession.” Others believe that yes, the Old Testament made those promises, but that the New Testament changed or modified or even abrogated those promises. Such views are known as “Replacement Theology,” or “supercessionism,” or sometimes as “fulfillment theology.”Tragically, such thinking among church leaders in Germany in the early 1900s created a poisonous, anti-Semitic environment which Adolf Hitler latched onto, rode to power, and then manipulated for the “Final Solution” and the murder of six million Jews during the Holocaust. Replacement theology won’t necessarily lead to genocide. But it can, and it has. Not all who hold various forms of Replacement Theology are anti-Semitic. Some are just misinformed or misguided. And misguided bad theology can lead to misguided actions.
At The Joshua Fund’s 2012 Epicenter Conference, we invited some of the world’s foremost Bible scholars and theologians in these areas to walk us through these sensitive and controversial issues. I’m so grateful to report that not only did they do a brilliant job, they also communicated in a way that was easy — even enjoyable — to understand. Here are links to three important videos from the conference on these issues. I hope you find them helpful and will pass them along to others to watch and consider, as well.
- What does the Old Testament say about God’s plan for Israel and the Jewish people? — taught by Dr. Norman Geisler.
- What does the New Testament say about God’s plan for Israel and the Jewish people? (does the NT change the OT plan, or reaffirm it?) — taught by Dr. Michael Rydelnik.
- Joel Rosenberg leads Q&A with Dr. Geisler and Dr. Rydelnik regarding their messages.
- Panel Discussion on Replacement Theology: Joel leads conversation with Dr. Rydelnik, Dr. Michael Vlach, and Pastor Skip Heitz on what Replacement Theology is, why it matters, and why it is flawed.
About Cris Putnam
This conference and videos do indeed provide a good deal of Scriptural truth; unfortunately, it’s also loaded with heretical teachings that did not even exist in the church until the false doctrines of dispensationalism were created in America in the 1800s, along with a host of other false teachings and religions that arose during that century, including the false pre-trib rapture, which flies in the face of the earliest teachings of those taught by St. John himself, known as the ante-Nicene fathers, NOT ONE OF WHICH BELIEVED that Christians would be secretly raptured out before antichrist’s persecution. Likewise, to support this dispensational poison, more new “theories” were taught about Israel and the church being separate, which also was not taught by the earliest church fathers, and that’s the focus of this reply. I encourage everyone to be like the Bereans and test everything against a plain and literal reading of Scriptures provided below on this topic.
Aside from the heretical Replacement Theology crowd who see the church as something separate from Israel and that replaces Israel to receive the covenantal promises of God, the Missler, LeHaye, DeYoung, et al, crowd show the fruit of their dispensational poison that permeates the American church. They assert the error that there are two paths to salvation, one an earthly kingdom for the Jews (who have their own separate promises) and, and the other a heavenly kingdom for the church (who has their own separate promises).
Quite simply, they completely miss the truth of the matter that there is no difference between the remnant of Israel and the church (begun in Christ and His remnant seed of the Jewish apostles), i.e., the church. I repeat, there is no difference between the Jewish remnant and the church–the former was born of Christ in creation continued, the latter born in Christ by its grafting in. Grafting In? into what? Remnant Israel, who with we Gentiles, are the church. And how do the dispensationalists respond? By pointing to the Abrahamic covenant promises to the SEED of Abraham–they miss the obvious fact that “seed” is singular, and that “seed” refers to Jesus Christ himself as a descendant of Abraham, who is the author of the faith of Abraham and all of his spiritual seed descendants:
Gen 15:18 “In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: ” Note that the ESV has seed incorrectly translated as “descendants,” when the correct translation is the singular “descendant” in reference to Christ the author of faith in all generations.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
All of Galatians 3, but especially:
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Likewise, all of Romans 9, but especially:
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
And as to the rest of Israel not of the seed, those who have been blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles be completed, St. Paul speaks regarding his fellow Jews:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
I encourage everyone to discard the false doctrines of dispensationalism, which are nothing more than false teachings born in deception in 1800s America along with all the other false teachings and false religions of that era– Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
In His love and truth, may our Lord bless all of you!
Mick,
You are making some strong claims and I think you are making broad sweeping generalizations without evidence. First you have to remember that dispensationalism began when historicism was dominate so it did serve as corrective in many important areas. Next, the timing of the rapture is a nonessential even for dispensationalists (look up porgressive dispensationalism). Finally, I know for a fact that Missler doesn’t teach two paths of salvation, (hyperdispensationalism) he agrees that the church is grafted in. You seem to be burning a strawman in large part.
Brother Chris,
Thanks for your response–I always enjoy sharpening iron with a fellow believer.
If I may in response to your first, please allow me to ask what areas did dispensationalism serve as a corrective to historical premillennialism? I’ve not heard that assertion before, and honestly, am giddy with anticipation of knowledge new to me.
I must disagree with you that the timing of the rapture is not a nonessential view. By anecdotal evidence alone, dispensationalists are not prepared to face antichrist because they think they won’t see him. Contrarily, they are not only ill-prepared as warriors for the heat of the battle against us like no time in history, it also does not occur to them that whomever they think they’ll see at the moment of their secret rapture will be none other than the antichrist himself, and they’ll be deceived into following him, how far and to what end only God knows–“my children perish for lack of knowledge,” “study to shew thyself a workman approved. . .,” “let no one deceive you,” etc.
Second on this issue of nonessential is the fact that there is only one truth, whatever that truth may be, in Scripture, and anything that is false, i.e., a lie told with good intentions or not, is contrary to God’s truth, i.e., an essential.
I apologize that I limited my issue with Missler to pointing out the (seeming) majority position of dispensationalists on Israel. My actual beef with Missler is that he has lied, and lied numerous times, to support his pre-trib rapture view. I was a student of Missler’s and quite an admirer for sometime; however, that was until I became a true student of God’s word and then re-watched Missler “Rapture” video, which is also on YouTube. In that video, Missler outright lies and says the early church fathers supported a pre-trib rapture, even listing them by name. Of course, he provided not a single quote from those fathers, but just lists their names while he said they supported pre-trib. If you are a serious student of the Lord’s Word, as I’m sure you are, then you know that the early church fathers believed no such thing. For Missler to say otherwise is an outright lie, which frankly is common of the types of things that come out of the dispensationalist leaders, e.g., Jimmy DeYoung teaching Christians that they can take the Mark of the Beast during the Tribulation, repent of it, and still be saved. Now’s there getting the sheep ready!
Likewise some of the things said and done by the famous pre-tribber Tim LaHaye, who took substantial amounts of money from Reverend Moon and kissed Moon’s ring while telling Moon that “your sufferings will save America.” This is the same Moon who declared himself to be the Messiah and that he had been in contact with the dead Stalin, Mao and Hitler and had turned them from their former thinking now that they were in the spiritual world.
And then there’s the issue of behavior, i.e., fruit, of these people, including the fact that John Darby was a schiester lawyer who swindled his family and others out of substantial amounts of money for phoney real estate deals, which he spent time for in jail–it’s on the internet and verifiable, including newspaper articles about it. Or the documented issues of plagiarism on rapture materials by Missler, Grant Jeffrey, et al, which was a real copyright issue because of the huge sums of money being made on that plagiarized material in books and videos being sold.
So, I apologize for my previous generalizing in my mention of dispensationalists–they weren’t the point of my article; rather the issue of how Israel is treated as separate, more on point, the correct Biblical teaching about Israel and the church.
Now that my strawman has gone up in flames 🙂 or should I say clarified, be blessed my Brother in your walk with our Lord.
BTW, I have written to Joel Rosenberg with the above earlier post, and his staff has kindly let me know that they will be sure he gets it. I’m very interested in his response. In a similar fashion, I’ve written to DeYoung, Ice, and a few others and rebuked them for their continuous assertion of Rev 3:10 as a definitive proof text for the rapture (Missler, too), which is not, as acknowledged by numerous Biblical scholars who defend pre-trib. Not surprisingly, I didn’t get a reply from them.
In His love and truth, may God continue to bless you and the ministry of Logos Aplogia.
I am the least of His servants and a watchman on the wall,
Mick in Atlanta
Mick, most held that the papacy was necessarily the antichrist and that the end of the age/papal system would occur in the 19th century. Dispensationalists were correct in turning their attention back to the Jews and Jerusalem where Jesus promised to return. I really can’t vet any of your accusations against personalities but even if they are all true that says nothing about the truth or falsity of dispensational theology. There are problems with all of the rapture views I lean toward prewrath but I think its a mystery for a reason. It really is a nonessential for most. You should look into progressive dispensationalism. The book by Darrell L. Bock and Craig Blaising might surprise you.
Thank you Brother Chris. I know that PD has some merits to it as have been espoused by both Alan Kurschner and Charles Cooper, et al, and am also aware of Bock’s and Blaising’s works on the topic, and even then there are some disagreements between Cooper/Kurschner & Bock/Blaising.
To be honest, Ive not given it the same level of study that I have other topics, mainly because the ante-Nicene fathers were historic premillennialists, with most of them subscribing to chiliasm. Most of my time has been in Scripture with a good deal of time in the ante-Nicenenes. Digging into PD more is on my study calendar, but most of my time is spent sharing the Gospel, sounding watchman warnings on false teachings, with my current study being in a verse-by-verse exegetical study of Revelation with extensive cross-referencing to OT verses often repeated word for word in Revelation. My “fun time” lately has been in conversations with several others on the end-times wars (Is 17, Ps 83, Ez 38/39 (Gog/Magog 1 and 2!), and Armageddon), what each of those wars are apart from one another, as well as their sequence and possible alignment related to Daniel’s 70th week. The Good Lord willing, I’ll dig more deeply into PD in His time.
Regarding your comment about personalities not being indicative of truth or falsity of dispensationalism, that’s not the issue for me. It’s that dispensationalism is a system devised by a crook (Darby), and promoted primarily through people who lie to support it (Missler, Jeffry, even Walvoord!) By its very foundational nature, PD is built and assumes much of that foundation for its support–a house of cards waiting for the sinking sand. I may not know all the cracks in the wall, but I don’t need to know where they are if the foundation is bad–it’s a moot point.
However, rather than leave it on that more general premise, I do intend to dig into PD in the near future.
Blessings Brother–thanks for the fellowship.
Mick
p.s. If you decide you want to vett my accusations, I’m more than happy to send you the links and or citations, e.g., DeYoung’s false teaching on Brannon Howse’s radio show of Oct 11, 2011, or Walvoord’s misrepresentations in various editions of BiblioTheca Sacra–a publication I used to get and very much enjoyed, sadly now no longer in my readings because of the slights of hand by Walvoord to support pre-trib dispenationalism–if I couldn’t trust the writings of the Dallas Theological Cemetary president (Walvoord), I certainly couldn’t trust the writings of those under his “doctrinal supervision.” And believe you me, you don’t teach at Dallas if you don’t toe the doctrinal pre-trib disp. line! At any rate, if you want to verify, I’m more than happy to share the results of my research as a watchman on the wall–a calling from our Lord over 3.5 years ago–PTL!
BTW Brother Chris, if I may in like fashion recommend that you read the writings of BW Newton, Nathaniel West and SP Trajelles–you’ll certainly sharpen your iron teeth on them–worth it.
By the way, off the top of my head, the other reason I didn’t fully dig further into Blaising’s works on PD, is I recall that he still ends up presenting two second comings in order to have one line up with the scriptures and the other line up with his definition of imminence which leads to the PreTrib Rapture position. Further, he suggests that there are two Day of the LORD complexes. When faced with evidence that the Day of the LORD cannot begin until certain signs are fulfilled (i.e. Elijah, cosmic signs), his essential response has been that the Day of the LORD complex would begin before the Day of the LORD begins. This is the type of thinking and twisting dispensationalists do in their apology, which also makes people like me put their work down without fully dissecting it.
Don’t forget Newton, Trajelles, and West.
Blessings!
Mick
Very Good; I have shared similarly here before on this matter of dispensation theology.. I think that Cris should seriously look further into it ..
It seems that whenever i bring the matter up on various sites, I get labelled an anti-Semite.. nothing can be further that the truth.. I have Jewish ancestry..
I am amazed at the dispensation position that having such a great love for the Jewish people the church would desert them to the butchery of Antichrist during the Tribulation whilst they are in their safety Zone supping with the lord.. I find that an utterly disturbing and preposterous doctrine that the Love of God should be expressed in that manner..
Blessings
john B
Ah, the Lord’s blessings upon you Brother John–an impassioned soul for the Lord–PTL!!!
That’s one of the problems with dispensationalism–at the end of the day, it’s Israel-centered eschatology, and whether people realize it or not, their mindset operates in a way that says if you speak against what they believe, they wrongly conclude you as anti-Semite. Of course, Bock and Blaising would understand your refutations to not be the case, but most believers have not dissected the issues to have that kind of understanding of the dispensational paradigm at work in them. All we can do if “give good reasons for what we believe,” and leave it to the Holy Spirit to convince those He chooses as He wills for His purposes. The fact that we’re all sharpening iron here on Logos Apologia, I have a firm faith that He is working those purposes.
Blessings to you again, my Brother!
Mick
John, It seems like every time you post on this, you misrepresent it, which is quite frustrating. Your abuse of the term “zionism” and advocacy of vast Jewish conspiracy is what seems anti-Semitic not so much your theology. Believing that God will turn His attention to the Jews so they see their error and repent as the scriptures plainly predict in Zechariah is hardly deserting them “to the butchery of the antichrist” — (as if the rapture would constitute a desertion?) — that isn’t even coherent.
Mick, I have a book on Historic premillennialism on my shelf. You seem really hung up on the rapture, I still don’t think any of the views are crystal clear. I still think you are guilty of the genetic fallacy in your argumentation (If Darby had moral failings in business, it says nothing about his exegesis or theology). I am too busy to spend time on it now but I would be interested in looking at your charges against Walvvoord, send me an email at logosapologia@gmail.com and document the references as I have the archive for BiblioTheca Sacra.
Brother Chris, if by “hung up on the rapture,” you mean that I believe being truthful about God’s Word on the matter is important, if preparing the sheep to suffer under antichrist’s persecution is important, and if our being caught up to the Lord before the wrath of God is poured out is important, then I am guilty as charged of being “hung up on the rapture.”
However, my Brother, I must adamantly disagree with you that how one lives, particularly dastardly deeds done, has no impact on his theology–this IMHO flies in the face of numerous Biblical teachings, e.g., what fellowship has light with darkness, good & bad vines and the things that spring from each, good and bad foundations, etc. In fact, how one lives springs from their theology, not the other way around, and in Darby’s case, his misdeed hang as “know them by their fruit” evidence that the spirit of error is at work by the very roots of it in the man’s life.
I’ll send you the documented quotes and references on Walvoord to your email, as you requested. Please know that I have no doubt of Walvoord’s love for our Lord; however, no man is above reproach and correction, regardless of how high he is lifted up by men, e.g., Dr. Billy Graham’s denial of Jesus’ exclusivity and beliefs of universalism. The spirit of error (or worse?) must be exposed so that others not fall into the same trap and spirit (Eph 5:11)–these must be exposed, so “that which is approved is made manifest to all.”
I remain, your Brother in our Lord Jesus Christ,
The least of His servants and a watchman on the wall,
Mick
Hi Cris. I do recall that Walwoord believes this in (brackets bellow) to be the crux of dispensation pre-Mil theology.. it may have been in His book on the millennium kingdom.
(An earthly kingdom of God, with its capital in Jerusalem, where Jesus Christ will reign on a worldly throne, in a worldly temple, overseeing a revival of animal sacrifices, with the righteous and wicked living side by side peacefully, and physical Jews exalted in restored superiority over Gentiles.)
To me, that has a strong resemblance of Jehovah witness new world theology.. having said that I am not aware that there has been any changes to that view among dispensationalists..There are a lot of new writings among the Messianic and their supporters favouring the same doctrine and even among some leading charismatic figures who see no wrong with the work of the temple institute having this agenda of the restoration of ‘animal sacrifices’
I find the whole doctrine blasphemous and a trampling underfoot the Blood of Messiah shed Once and for all..
blessings
john B
Brother John, (with your permission, Brother Chris–if not okay, please just delete–ok with me),
I formerly believed as you, John–it just seemed plain on its face that once Jesus made the perfect sacrifice, then animal sacrifices in the temple would cease. However, during several of my theology discussions with another Brother (Darrin Ball a/k/a Orange Mailman–he actually is a mailman), and after considering his Biblical analysis of the topic, including the fact that animal sacrifices continued in the Apostle’s day and after, as well as the prophecies of the future temple, it appears (and I’ve not fully dissected the matter yet), it appears that animal sacrifices will be re-instituted in the future temple? So, while plain on its face seems right, it’s not the test of what the truth of Scripture is, and Orange Mailman uses Scripture in such a test of the matter.
Of course, I do not agree with any notion of Jews being exalted in restored superiority over Gentiles, nor the “wicked and righteous living side by side”; but, IF and until I can refute Orange Mailman’s analysis, I cannot dismiss future animal sacrifices in the temple, let alone call it blasphemy.
I share this with you (and Brother Chris), so that you may be like the Bereans and test what Scripture actually does say on the matter, and in no way do I yet (if ever) endorse Orange’s analysis and belief.
http://theorangemailmanmyblog.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/the-future-house-of-sacrifice/
Blessings of our Lord to you both!
Mick
Hi mick; I read Mailman’s article and I disagree with him in many areas of his view.. I briefly share my position.. The gathering place of the Apostles and converts was no in the Temple as such, It was at Solomon’s portico Acts3:11, 5:12.
It must be remembered also that in many of his epistles Paul rejected the Mosaic constitution,Galatians being the primary one.The centrality of which was the animal sacrifices.. Paul even rebuked Apostle Peter on one occasion for siding with jewish customs out of fear of them..
I believe that Paul used the temple as a means of conversion for its worshippers.. I believe that Acts21:21,27,28 expresses this truth. even to the end of his life in Rome he used the Jewish constitution as to the means for conversion of the Jews Acts28:23,24
Furthermore; upon the Lords sacrifice the Veil of the Temple was rent apart followed by a 40 year time span of probation to the nation ending with the fulfilment of Daniel’s prophecy concerning Prince Titus Son of the Emperor Vespartian in 70 AD. The destruction as foretold by the Lord. Mat 24:15.
I have to further disagree with The Orange Mailman on the basis that there will be no literal 1000 years, as I believe it to be the present reign of Christ symbolically as are many other portions of the Revelation which express truth by imagery.
The prophets foretold of Christ’s eternal kingdom in the New heaven and the new earth Isaiah65:17-25 Rev22:1-7 Apostle Peter affirms this 2Pet313 No wickedness there.. therefore no need for sacrifice!
The next agenda on God’s time table as I understand it is the return of Christ to judge the living and the dead Acts10:42 2Tim4:1 2Thes1:6-10 Rev22:12
blessings
john B
Brother John,
Wow, you’re a-mil? Really? I’m going to have to get back to you. My daughter was just in a car wreck yesterday . . . I look forward to an intelligent, Scripturally solid conversation with you; but in all honesty, most of my conversation with the a-mil camp has been nothing more than what I would call a Bullwinkle, “watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat.” It’s very hard to have a conversation with someone when you’re talking about, e.g, “up,” only to hear, “Oh, UP? That’s not up, it’s a symbol for down.” That has not always been the case when I’ve talked with a-mil folks; but when I’ve quoted ante-Nicene fathers to them about what those taught by St. John (or in his line) taught, I get what looks like an hermeneutical quick-step that leaves me thinking (the word of another brother) to myself: These folks wouldn’t recognize the Whore of Babylon if she gave them a lapdance.
Conversely, I’ve not read all of Orange Mailman’s posts; but from what I gather, he’s had a much more intelligent and Biblical discussion.
At any rate, I will get back to you, Brother in hopes of a a good iron sharpening iron exchange.
Blessings of our Lord upon you!
Mick
p.s. Assuming this is all okay with Brother Christ here on his Logos website? I am very thankful to you that you’ve allowed us to clang sabers (sharpen iron) here–may our Lord continue to bless you and your ministry!
Hi Cris,
Thank you for posting this. I love Joel Rosenberg. Also, thank you so much for your testimony on Chris White’s show. It was a great encouragement to me. God Bless you and your lovely wife. I appreciate your ministry.
Thanks Tiffany!