By Cris D. Putnam
I was emailed an offensive video over the holiday called “How the Jews Stole Christmas” sent to me by Joe Ortiz. Ortiz has written a couple books criticizing the pretubulation rapture position and dispenationalism. Over a year ago, he approached me about his book The End Times Passover of which I read one chapter but quickly put it down as it was immediately obvious to me that he was misrepresenting what pretiribulational dispensationalists believe so badly that he could not offer a meaningful critique. In case you are wondering, I do not identify as pretribultional so this was not driven by bias. Ortiz misunderstands dispensational theology in very fundamental ways and fails to make distinctions between classic, revised, and progressive dispensationalism, that is, if he is even aware of them. But this Christmas video is something altogether different:
This video is fallacious on a number of levels. First, Christians historically have not celebrated Christmas. The Puritan community found no Scriptural justification for celebrating Christmas, and associated such celebrations with paganism and idolatry. It is a twentieth century development largely at the hands of American department stores. Second, the video is transparently racist. I define “Jew” as a person who descends from Jacob. Historically, it referred to the tribe of Judah but any good bible dictionary will tell you it assumed a broader definition after the Babylonian captivity:
The Intertestamental Period The Greek name Ioudaios (plural Ioudaioi) was used for the Israelites in the Greek and Roman world. This is the name used in the treaty between Judas Maccabeus and the Romans, described in 1 Macc. 8:23–32: “May all go well with the Romans and with the nation of the Jews” (v. 23).[1]
It’s an ethnic group, a race of people like Hispanics or Italians. So when someone titles a video “How the Jews Stole Christmas” they are engaging in racism by making a broad sweeping generalization accusing all Jews — obviously not all Jews are in on some dubious conspiracy to “steal Christmas” even if a few of them actually were — so anyone who promotes material like this is promoting racism. Joe Ortiz mass emailed the above video two days prior to Christmas. I replied to Joe how disappointed I was, because making such a broad accusation is obviously racist and that Jesus himself was Jewish.
Cris: “Joe, What’s up with the racism? Please don’t send me this bigoted trash. BTW Jesus was Jewish.”
Joe: “He was? I thought He was Aramaic, but born in the area known as Judah? Did He practice what is written in the Talmud? Isn’t that what it means to be Jewish?”[2]
Cris: “Wow Joe this is very disappointing, I’m sorry but you are really uniformed about the most basic facts. Yes, Jews are people descended from Jacob, David descends from Jacob and Jesus was from the line of David, read the genealogies in Matthew and Luke. Aramaic is a language not a race of people… the Talmud came after the destruction of the temple many years later. I challenge you to dispute any of those statements with documented evidence. Racism is not fitting for anyone who follows Jesus, the Jewish Messiah.”
Joe: Jews came from the tribe of Judah, one of the 12 tribes of Israel. But yet, you believe that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were Jews, don’t you? Is Hebrew a language or a people? When Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about the traditions of their fathers (which happened before the destruction of the Temple), was He not speaking about the Talmudic mentality? I suppose the racism put out by John Hagee, and most Christian Zionists, against Arabs is fitting?[3]
Cris: Hebrew is both a language and Jews are called Hebrews as well. Since, the Babylonian captivity the term “Jews” includes all 12 tribes. You need to pray over John 4:22 “Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.(Jn 4:21–22) I think Hagee is wrong about a lot and I don’t pay attention to him – so I’m not chasing that red herring.
Joe then sent me this article Jesus Was Not a Jew. I am forced to assume he endorses it because he sent it to me as his defense. Read it yourself to understand the level of absurdity he is willing to stoop too. Jesus is even explicitly described as from the tribe of Judah – a true Jew even in the original usage of the term: “And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” (Re 5:5)
A scholarly lexicon shows that the New Testament used Jew for all 12 tribes descended from Jacob.
Ἰσραήλ—Ἰουδαῖος in Jewish Literature after the OT.
After the collapse of Northern Israel in 722 b.c., only the comparatively small territory around Jerusalem, the kingdom of יהודה, was left to maintain the ancient tradition and name of what was once the whole people ישראל. Thus in pre-exilic times the total designation ישראל can be used in passages where strictly the reference is only to the kingdom of יהודה. After the return from exile the people is even more exclusively restricted to the province of Judah, and all those who live in Palestine outside this province are non-Israelites. It is thus quite natural that the name which derives from the territory, Heb. יְהוּדִי, Aram. (יהודאי) יְהוּדָי or Greek Ἰουδαῖος, which originally denotes an inhabitant of the kingdom or province of Judah, should come to be used more generally for a member of the people of Israel. To denote, not a member of the Jewish state or an inhabitant of Judaea, but a member of this people, two terms can thus be used, namely, ישלראἸσραήλ “Israel(ite)” and יהודיἸουδαῖος, “Jew.”[4]
Thus, in the New Testament era “Jew” was equivalent to Israelite or Hebrew. The conversation digressed, I accused him of being a racist and Joe repeatedly threw out red herrings and logical fallacies rather than defend his assertion that Jesus was not Jewish. As I argued to no avail, the word “we” in John 4:22 is inclusive, “we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.” According to John, Jesus said that and His use of “we” is His identification as a Jew. It seems to me that based on this statement, you are faced with 3 options:
- The Bible has an error Jesus never said it.
- Salvation comes from the Jews but Jesus was not a Jew.
- Salvation is through Christ alone as the Jewish Messiah.
It’s not clear what Ortiz believes because Jesus statement in John 4:21-22 infers that God used the Jewish people to deliver His word and to incarnate himself as the Jewish Messiah. Furthermore, the NT and the OT were written by Jewish people except for Luke who wrote Luke/Acts and of course, the primary dispute, Jesus was an ethnic Jew. So in that sense salvation was delivered to mankind through the Jews. I never got a straight answer out of Joe because he kept changing the subject to Zionism or dispensational theology. I challenged him to debate the topic “Jesus was a Jew” on Youtube but he only made excuses. Doesn’t this seem like a case of “protocols of the learned elders of Zion” mythology inspiring anti-Semitism in Joe?
[1]Edwin Yamauchi, “Jews in the New Testament” In , in Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary, ed. Chad Brand, Charles Draper, Archie England et al. (Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers, 2003), 920.
[2] Personal to Cris Putnam email dated 12-27-2012
[3] Ibid.
[4] Ἰσραήλ—Ἰουδαῖος , vol. 3, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. Gerhard Kittel, Geoffrey W. Bromiley and Gerhard Friedrich, electronic ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1964-), 359.
About Cris Putnam
He really is something else. I’ve had a few discussions with several from his FB posts and it is exasperating to even attempt a dialogue.
I agree, goal post shifting, red herrings, logical fallacies, its nearly impossible to get a straight answer out of him.
So what if the Jews stole christmas, the whole thing is of pagan origin anyway.
I believe that br Nathaniel is spot on about the ACLU and ADL. might as well throw in there the reserve bank and most banking houses.
I do believe there is a Talmudic Jewish agenda to blaspheme and remove the name of Christ not only in association with Christmas, but in every sector of our society we find this suppression of the Faith of the Lord’s establishment.
The Talmud is the book of the Jews wherein the oral traditions of the elders is given precedence over theTorah.
Antichrists come in many various assorted flavours, however; the Spirit is the same it is in opposition to Jesus the Jewish Messiah who came in the flesh as the sin bearer of all men.
Why am I not surprised to see Cris Putnam write a distorted article about me on his web site. From the outset I saw where he was coming from.. His first remarks included calling me a bigot and a Neo-Nazi, which he failed to mention. I chose to continue a dialogue for one reason only, he had posted a commendation about me on LinkedIn concerning my blogs (which he has conveniently since removed). I admit I responded too quickly about Jesus’ ethnic lineage and used the word “Aramaic” which is the language Jesus spoke. Well, Cris jumped on that real quick. I really didn’t want to take him that seriously because I know that Cris has been trained and does support the premillennial dispensaionalism dogma. Those who do all agree in the Rapture to Heaven and “Israel First” doctrine, which has no validity in the Bible.
In my next few messages (in order to qualify his claim that Jesus was Jewish), I asked him, “What is a Jew? Is it a race, a religion, a culture, or a political quest (as everyone knows is a movement) to take back the Land of Israel, which has no Bible validity.
He kept sending me more emails filled with ad hominem remarks which is a tactic used by Christian Zionists who cannot answer direct questions and who have closed their minds to what the Bible clearly teaches, a tactic made famous by those in the Jewish community who have a “New World Order” hidden agenda. Cris then sent me the verse (John 4:22), which states “Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews” Bible scholars more qualified than Cris or me know this verse does not prove that Jews (collectively with Jesus) provided mankind with salvation. I sent him a piece that explained exactly what was going on between Jesus and the woman at the well, and Cris ignored it. Didn’t bother to address it whatsoever. I knew then there would be no sensible discussion thereafter. But, Cris continued to send his insulting ad hominem emails. Towards the end, realizing he could not answer any of my qualifying questions, his ego prompted him to challenge me to a public debate (both of us presenting our respective cases on ten minute videos). I responded the only thing I fear is to be found not worthy of entering God’s kingdom, and a video debate with him would solve nothing, especially after, In essence, if I refused he would then be able to make the claim I was afraid to debate him. If after 10 days of going back and forth we could not develop a professional manner of sharing Bible-based information to prove our points, ten minute videos would prove nothing.
In my final message I asked him two pertinent questions. I said, “Are you saying that if by he claiming that Jesus was a “Jew” was he implying that Jesus practiced Judaism? Are you saying by virtue of John 4 :22 that Jesus and the Jews collectively are responsible for providing salvation to humanity? He couldn’t (or wouldn’t) respond to my questions because then he would have to admit that he promotes a doctrine that Jesus did not provide humanity salvation on His own, we have to be grateful to the “Jews” who made salvation possible. Really! Do I have to write the many verses that clearly states that salvation is by no other person other than Jesus Christ? That rabbit trail is designed (and invented by Talmudic Jews) to divide the disciples of Christ, one of the main tactics used by both Christian and Jewish Zionists.
I gave up trying to have any further discussion with Cris. However, I’m not surprised he took this action by he writing his post, lying and distorting our conversations (I have each email saved to substantiate everything I am stating here.) Sadly, Cris, like many of his other comrades who are upset about everything I have written in my two books, do not like to be exposed for their failure in discerning God’s message. He wrote that I have no idea about the subject of dispensationalism (citing three different views) and I told him it would take months to discuss all of those issues (which I didn’t have the time); telling him outright that the dispensationalism doctrine (in all of its forms) is a myth and a distorted version of the Bible, injected by John Nelson Darby and C.I. Scofield, (to favor the Zionists agenda who funded Scofield to write his version of the Bible) which has no scripture-based substantiation.
Actually, I saw this derisive action coming on behalf on Cris D. Putnam (and his compatriots) who cannot handle my direct challenges to their respective ministries, which are ego-motivated and designed to gain the fame and fortune. Therefore, I have no problem lumping them all in the Mammonite Society which is trying to destroy Christianity and establish their New World Order.
Oh! Since Cris has control of his own web site, I’ll guarantee you he will not post my response. So what else is new. His membership in that cabal of esoteric, theorists, who write books about supernatural and Catholic conspiracies (drawing attention away from the real enemies of Christ) are afraid to meet the public, interface with them on social networks, daring to be vulnerable as they present their doctrines. Instead they hide inside their blogs (preaching to the choir) and reveling in all the compliments they receive from their faithful.
I’m not perfect, but most certainly I’m not afraid to interface with the public and take the heat and stand by my conclusions.
I’m In His Peace,
Joe Ortiz, author
The End Times Passover and
Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation
https://sites.google.com/site/theendtimespassover/
I have all the emails Joe, you are disingenuous. Since posting this I have received tens of comments on Facebook from other Christians who have tried to discuss theology with you, they all say the same thing, you are irrational and a waste of time. I spent a lot of time trying to reason with you and now I just wanted the truth exposed. There is nothing in the post above that misrepresents what you have said in any way.
I used to be on Facebook and was friends with Joe. He posted things daily on his page like, “the Republicans hate Mexicans” and other stuff that was just complete boilerplate nonsense. He never backed up his rhetoric with facts, that was the problem. I grew tired of it and eventually removed him from my contacts.
I don’t know what Joe O. believes. I started to read his comment above, but found it too confusing to finish? I understand why Occultist and even the world falls into the lie of racism, but this should never be with Christians. Sadly, some professing Christians throughout history have been racist. There are Elite occultist, mostly white European/American decent, some Jewish and other races too. Yet, you can’t ever blame evil on a particular race, it is an evil lie that leads to eugenics and eventually a holocust. There have been so many claims and attacks against the Jewish people throughout history, demonic in origin. I won’t quibble with believers over trivial issues, but I will always stand up for men, we are created in God’s image and we are to honor life and care for one another.
I am an advocate that salvation is by Grace and not Race.. That somehow labels me as anti-semite.
Jesus was a Jew in the flesh, but He is the Son of God… Does God have a race? No; “God is Spirit” and such are His people (sons and daughters of God) Born of that spirit by which we worship Him. Jn4:24
The Spirit of antichrist denies all of this, pushing the race issue! To this spirit many christians have succumbed…
blessings
john B
Some information on my research….
Ezekiel among the exile in the Land of the Chaldeans (Babylon) was shown by the Lord the abomination of the elders of Israel Ez8:6-18 let us keep in mind here that this abomination is a clerical issue (The elders) as Ezekiel points out.
The Chaldean religion acquired by the Jewish eldership and priests during the captivity of Babylon gave birth to the sect of the Pharisees whose name only appear in the scriptures and in the writings of Jewish historians after the captivity (606BC)
The ‘Cabala’ or (tradition of the Pharisees) originated from there.. for a long time their precepts (teachings) were only transmitted ‘orally’ Latter they formed the Talmud which received its final form in the book called the ‘Sepher ha Zohar’ their teaching in print.. ‘Talmud and Cabala’ go hand in hand..
The ‘Jewish encyclopaedia’ acknowledges the Babylonian Chaldean origins of the Cabala (Kabbalah) as the Hidden wisdom of the Hebrew rabbi’s of the middle ages derived from older secret doctrines and that early Gnosticism flowed from the Jews to the ersatz (christians).
But there is much more!
The early Church stood against This evil as did Jesus and the Apostolic body… However; The emperor Constantine followed By Julian gave entrance of these Babylonian Pharisaic doctrines in what we now call the Catholic church… Clerical Catholicism and its worship is crammed with the sorceries of Babylon, one cannot deny the similarities between the two… Any who know anything about Catholicism can readily see in her the descriptive false worship in Ezekiel chapter 8.
Blessings
john B
JohnB,
I really question that account because the origin of the Pharisees is not well known. If you read the last few chapters of the Book of Ezra, then the way they thought makes sense. Of course they got it wrong, but you haven’t cited any sources. I know something about Babylonian religion and I do not know how you came to this conclusion. If you study the actual Babylonian religion you would be hard pressed to find any parallels. What did they borrow from the Babylonians specifically?
Below is a Bible dictionary entry on the Pharisees:
Not so, it is only when you make broad sweeping generalizations about a group of people based on their ethnicity or race, you just throw up the former as a diversion.
God is triune and the second person of the trinity is a Jewish man and God.
I’m not pushing it, salvation is through Christ alone for Jews and Gentiles but God did choose a people group – the Jewish people – by which to deliver His word and incarnate into as a man. They serve as an example of His faithfulness and He will preserve a remnant of them through the tribulation for His glory. It is in the spirit of Antichrist to deny that.
Well said!
Is Jesus a Zionist? No. Does Jesus approve of what the Zionists have done? No. Can a person be Christian in approving what Jesus disapproves? No.
How many different kinds of Jews are referred to in the Gospels? Was Jesus each of those kinds? No. Think! When was he a Jew? When was he not a Jew?
Tom,
The point is that Jesus was a Jew and He said things like “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”(Mt 15:24) and “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”(Mt 10:5–6) The issue of modern Zionism is just a red herring. It is unrelated to the issue at hand. I’m not interested in chasing red herrings.
Thank you, Chris, for fishing my comment out of your spam queue.
I understand that you want to argue solely whether Jesus was a Jew; however, I must say that the issue of Zionism is not a red herring here for the simple reason that Joe Ortiz raised the issue.
This is your blog, and as such, you are perfectly entitled to use your prerogative as to what to answer and even what to allow; but when someone else in a thread clearly raises an issue and others respond about that overarching theme of his (anti-Zionism), I hardly see it as valid to protest my comment as even partly a red herring. I hope you are not suggesting that commentators on your post here are not allowed to or shouldn’t discuss here anything other than whether Jesus is a Jew and only as you limit that question to exclude Zionism, per se.
I point out that when you raise that the video Joe supplied is racist, you thereby opened the door to the question of when and where Zionism itself is the conflation of 1) a type of Jew and that type’s Gentile supporters and 2) racism and ethnic bigotry, which I hold is exactly the case and which I would suggest to you is also the video author’s position. If there is such a type of “Jew” and Jesus is a Jew, then it would behoove you to differentiate, as I have and will continue. Calling it a red herring is neither sufficient nor acceptable intellectually or spiritually.
If you don’t want to address the issue of Zionism even slightly, I personally take that as ducking; but, as I said, it’s your prerogative.
As for Jesus being a Jew, you are arguing from a semantical position that constitutes cherry picking. As my comment more than suggested, there are types of Jews (that is different connotations of the term “Jew” in the Gospels and the whole Bible, frankly) concerning some of which types Jesus was clearly not defined. Do you disagree?
If you do, then you will be calling Jesus Pharisaical and by doing so, will place yourself completely outside any version of Christianity with which I am aware and certainly outside Christianity in my book, regardless.
Peace, love, and truth are one whole,
Tom Usher
BTW, because I’m having difficulty posting here due to the anti-spam plugin and the fact that this site has quite strangely not set a cookie on my computer so I don’t have to repeatedly fill in the “Name,” “Email,” and “Website” fields, I inadvertently put an h in your name, Cris. I had fixed it in my first attempt to reply but resorted to what was in my clipboard when posting again in a different browser (that also isn’t getting a cookie) and didn’t remove the h.
Thank you.
Hi Cris;
you said: (I’m not pushing it, salvation is through Christ alone for Jews and Gentiles but God did choose a people group – the Jewish people – by which to deliver His word and incarnate into as a man. They serve as an example of His faithfulness and He will preserve a remnant of them through the tribulation for His glory. It is in the spirit of Antichrist to deny that). with your statement I fully agree, although i take it that this Jewish remnant spends beyond the geographical locality of the state of Israel..
l am not saying that you are pushing the race issue, but there are those, many in fact that do so with political agenda.. Rev Haggie is example of a Zionist christian, words of his mouth!..
I know many pastors who support Rev H’s views. Also the majority of Messianic christians are politically zionist minded.
I think we do agree that Zionism is a political movement that has world wide Christian support. But i do not support it as such, as I believe that it has nothing to do with the preaching of the gospel of Jesus christ and the kingdom of God.
i will provide the sources of my research for you on the Babylonian aspects of Pharisees soon.
blessings
john B
Hi Cris some sources; http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3878-cabala
The Book by Edith Starr miller 1933 ‘occult theosophy’
The Jewish chronicles I cannot recall the location.
I am sure that if you really want to look into the matter, Your expertise would serve you well.
As one who was raised in Catholicism then having been born of God’s Spirit I begun to see and understand the ties of the Roman church with Judaism.. we find that in their clerical vestment, church vessels, liturgy (the sacrificial mass), authority structure, internal architecture (the sanctuary, the show bread, the budding rod of Aaron ect. see A Hislop ‘The two Babylons’ it is on line, some interesting reading there on the Catholic Trinity which still permeates Protestantism.
One cannot deny that the Talmud and Kabbalah is also the sacred book of the Zionist Rabbi of today. look up the last gathering of Zionist Rabbis in NY for the study of the Talmud. it is on youtube. These Zionist Jews believe that ‘jesus is a dog who resides among filth and vermin’ see Zohar 111,282a
Look up the Rabbinic Seminary ‘Yeshivat Hamekubalim’ Jewish chronicle.. see there the occult practice of making amulets,charms and talismans.
look up Rabbi Joseph D Soloveichik one of the greatest antichrist in NY. look at his views on Israel.
Blessings
john B
Cris, it has been reported to me that you have rejected several comments submitted by a few people. Obviously, when a person is convinced his doctrinal position is correct, they would have no fear of having other people’s opinions or questions posted. Just saying!
Cris, it has been reported to me that you have rejected several comments submitted by a few people. Obviously, when a person is convinced his doctrinal position is correct, they would have no fear of having other people’s opinions or questions posted. Just saying!
Not true, I have rejected none but I do have a spam filter that may have flagged a few if they linked to other sites. [I just checked my spam filter and there was only one comment by Tom which just posed a number of red herring questions, I responded to it.] – so much for your censorship victim routine, how childish…
Pharasees represent a belief not a nationality. The Talmud represents a belief, not a nationality. My opinion is that Christians shouldn’t focus so much on Occult practices and beliefs. Knowing God and understanding scripture is where real knowledge comes from. We are easily deceived if too focused on the works of the Enemy. One way to judge a position is what is at the heart of it? Descrimination, hate, anger- those positions seem to fit right in with the Pharasees, the Occult and the Enemy.
Tiffany,
As I put to Cris, I put to you:
Cris did not say he disagrees.
If Abraham was a Jew, as has been stated above, then the nation of Abraham (at the very least his immediate children) would be part of the nationality that is Jewish. Was Ishmael a Jew? If not, then either Abraham ought not be called a Jew or the term Jew clearly isn’t confined to a nationality in the sense you’ve been claiming.
As for discrimination, hate, and anger, do you never in righteous indignation discriminate against evil, hate it, and become upset to the point of anger at it? If there have been and are perhaps still righteous people, do you believe that there have never been or are not now any people who are the opposite, which is evil? Are there non-evil sinners? Does not the sin come out from the evil within? Do we not know a tree by its fruit? Was Jesus wrong?
The knowledge of God doesn’t come absent the knowledge of what God is not. Focusing upon what’s truly good versus evil is required for the deepest repentance.
Jesus knew the enemy. He shined a spotlight on them. In my view, your approach would turn off that light. That light is shined on the Zionist Jews hiding in darkness, but they reject it while we see that light and them and their anti-Christ beliefs and works.
How can anyone claim to be a Christian while excusing or facilitating those Jews who are Zionists in the Zionists’ clearly evil deeds? Jesus did not excuse or facilitate the scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees, or any anti-Christs.
The issue of modern Zionism is a red herring. The issue of debate here is Joe’s absurd assertion that Jesus was not Jewish. I have seen no coherent defense offered because it is nothing but antisemitic nonsense.
That Jesus Christ was not every type of Jew referred to in the Bible is absolutely not “antisemitic nonsense.” For you to persist, Cris, in claiming that it is, is what is nonsensical.
Why don’t you just admit that Jesus Christ was not every type of Jew referred to in the Bible rather then fail trying to tap dance around it? You can’t get around it, and ignoring it won’t work either.
Joe Ortiz is not a racist or ethnic bigot. You have clearly been trying to more than suggest that he is. Shame on you for it. You are not behaving as a brother in Christ.
You’ve had ample opportunity to see the light here but have deliberately avoided it.
I think its completely ridiculous. Its also completely disingenuous to bait-and-switch to “Jesus was not every kind of Jew” as if that ever was the discussion. The link Joe sent is absurdly inane. A Jew is is a descendent of Jacob, the New Testament says Jesus was a Jew, the rest is noise Your motives are pretty transparent and your tactics are dishonest.
Hi Cris, Tom; Jesus was a Jew in the flesh as the incarnate Word of God, No one denies that… However;
Apostle Paul said; “Now we know Him (Jesus) thus no longer” 2Cor5:16
His resurrection nullifies his human genealogy.. He was indeed “the second Adam” by lineage and Saviour of all races “for God so loved the world”………..
Some say the Jewish church and the Gentile church were two differing entities… Jesus said “I will build my church” Mat16:18 Now the Devil, He loves the race issue which is all grounded in Pride.
I am a Roman Chatolic, I am a Greek Orthodox, I am a Messianic Jew, I am a Baptist ect…. and the list of division goes on. “WE KNOW HIM THUS NO LONGER”
Blessings
john B
john B
Exactly! that was my point…
Actually, Joe Ortiz did he even said “I thought he was Aramaic” which shows how uniformed he is.And that is the end of story, the rest is just goal post shifting and red herrings. Joe’s claims are indefensible and he is a very poor source for biblical or theological information.
Here’s your thinking, Cris Putnam. “But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, ‘And who is my neighbour?'” (Luke 10:29 ) That’s you, Cris, asking the question. According to you, a Jew is only one narrow thing: a descendent of Jacob. So, your neighbor is the person living next door. Perhaps you be willing to stretch that a little to one living with you in your “neighborhood” but certainly not someone living on the other side of the planet, even if you were to go there and find that one half dead by the side of the road.
Yes, it’s ridiculous, because you are unable or unwilling to understand the spiritual meanings of the term “Jew.” Do you also say that Egypt and Sodom cannot be Jerusalem?
You have the nerve to call what I’ve written a bait and switch. I didn’t start this post. You did. You called Joe out and did so because he sent you an anti-Zionist video made by an ethnic Jew who is a repentant Christian you call a racist without even knowing him! The man obviously wasn’t referring to any descendant of Judah or Jacob who had not stolen Christmas (whether you like Christmas or not). He was referring solely to those Jews who have done everything in their power to undermine all things Jesus, even those things that were mingled with the pagan. He referred to “the Jews” the same way “the Jews” are referred to in the Gospel: “His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?” (John 11:8) Who were those disciples, not Jews? How could they speak about the Jews that way and not thereby be racists and ethnic bigots by your usage?
You attacked Joe for being racist but switched the debate to your narrowly chosen subject so that you could ridicule him without anyone being able in your mind to do anything but agree with you about Jesus being a descendent of Judah. Ah, but you say Jacob because you are selectively willing to allow for different connotations of terms when it suits your attacking fellow Christians. Did you simply point out to Joe Mat 1:16-2 and Luk 3:23-38 and calmly ask him why he says Jesus is not a Jew? Did Joe say that Mat 1:16-2 and Luk 3:23-38 are in error? I doubt it.
You call it noise that there are different spiritual Jews and that Jesus isn’t every type. You think the real Jews are the flesh and blood descendants of Jacob. That shows how little you know.
When you call out people for being racists or ethnic bigots when you don’t even know them and you don’t even check first and then call it noise when you’re shown to be wrong even about the tool you’re using to attack them and when those others are professing Christians, you are flat wrong.
You owe Joe an apology for calling him a racist, for more than just insinuating it. You owe Nathaniel an apology too because you do not know that he is a racist based solely upon that video. Nathaniel doesn’t like what the Jews (some; a certain type; the false-hearted ones; the fakes) are doing to the Palestinians. I agree with him about that. Do you ever take a clear stand against Zionism? You sound wishy-washy at best.
You need to repent. Joe admitted that he erred when he said Aramaic. It takes a man to admit when he’s misspoken for whatever reason. So far, you can’t tie his shoes.
Now you accuse me of meaning other than what I’ve clearly said. You impugn my motives, as if I haven’t been perfectly clear. I am an anti-Zionist! I know Joe is not a racist or ethnic bigot. You are attacking him falsely. My tactics show it. You are the one who is exposed here, not Joe, not Nathaniel, not I.
I suspect that you don’t like Joe for his anti-Zionism, even though he’s right about it. If I’m wrong about that, if you don’t have a problem with his anti-Zionism, if you didn’t attempt to make him appear stupid here and to narrow the discussion because of it, I’ll apologize. Did you ever agree with Joe about Zionism – that it’s evil? Was this blog post of yours solely to say that Joe didn’t know about “classic, revised, and progressive dispensationalism” and was misspeaking when he appeared to you to be suggesting that Jesus wasn’t a descendant of Judah and Jacob? I find that very hard to believe since you raised the race card and carefully attempted to preclude any defense: “Jesus is a Jew.”
I responded to the claim “Jesus was not a Jew” not that “Jesus was every kind of Jew” which is unintelligible. Joe said Jesus was “Aramaic” and also sent a link to an article “Jesus was not a Jew.” You guys cannot defend that absurd antisemtic nonsense so you try to move the goal posts way up the field. Joe is widely known for this as many folks have confirmed. I am not wasting my time debating Zionism or the wacky Jew conspiracy theories you guys promote, the fact demonstrated here that you believe and defend them speaks for itself.
It is rather shocking that after Hitler, people who call themselves Christians would attack the Jewish people and not see this as evil and wrong! Are there Jewish people In the Occult? Yes, there are people of all races in the Occult. How can anyone deny that Jesus was Jewish?
Google Jesus and Hanukkah. In the NT, it tells us Jesus celebrated what is now referred to as Hanukkah.
Hi Tiffany; my concern is not so much the Jewish people.. Rather; it is the leadership within Christian churches that promote the Judaic Zionist ideology which is basically, that the Jews will rule supreme over the Nations at the coming of their messiah… ((In a nut shell)) That is Antichrist!…. because the Jews acknowledge not that ‘Messiah has come’ in fulfilment of their Prophets, for which Jesus severely rebuked them..
The Gospel of the kingdom of God is the fulfilment of the prophets! which the Apostles preached.
That Antichrist pharisee Spirit which Apostle Paul called the church to beware of, calling them “Dogs of the circumcision” Phil3:2 That is what many Christians now support…
You readily see it by the christian support given to the Blasphemous ‘temple institute’ with their agenda for the ((restoration of animal sacrifices)).. That in itself reveals the blindness of many by the spirit of antichrist.. As the jew is blinded so are these who support such a restoration…
Listen to the Word of the Apostle… “But when the fulness of Time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the Law in order to redeem those who were under the law, receiving the adoption of sonship” Gal4:4
Any who understand what it is that the “fulness of time” brought upon the Jews, will readily see the folly of the temple institute for what it is (A treading under foot the blood of the eternal covenant)..
Woe to christians who side with those who insist in the law of a pharisaical sacrifice against the accomplished work of Messiah!
“It is Finished” cried the ‘bread of Life’ as the precious Blood washed away Jacobs iniquity Isaiah59:20,21 Rom11:26;27 once and for all times. For it was indeed, “The fulness of Time” within the dispensation of the grace of God.
Blessings
john b
A pertinent question; If, as the Apostle stated that Christ was “Born under the Law” why is it that he had nothing but rebuttal for the pharisee?
it is obvious is it not, that the pharisee’s were not abiding in the Law of Moses of which Christ said that it was perfect.. so then; What Law was it that pharisee’s practiced? I say that it is the same that which modern zionist Judaism practice today.
For indeed the Law of Moses pointed to Christ… ” A prophet like unto myself” said moses Deut18:15…But not so! According the Talmud they opposed and rejected Christ……..
john B
John B.
Thank you for your response. I’m glad you are not referring to all Jewish people and thank you for clarifying. I don’t agree with all of your views, but I respect your right to believe the way you do and I think I understand why you came to your conclusions. I don’t want to argue it out. I think we both have our minds set and soon more will be revealed until the true return of our SAVIOR. We all agree what a glorious day that will be! I hope the Body will set differences aside, until that day, to love one another and work together to build His great Kingdom!
God Bless you,
Sincerely~
Tiffany