While we lean strongly toward the futurist school, we acknowledge that there is merit to the historicist approach. It seems like a mistake to just dismiss centuries of scholarship with a hand wave. However, there are many criticisms. Biblical scholar, G.K. Beale, characterizes historicism in this way,
“Typically this view identifies parts of the Apocalypse as prophecies of the invasions of the Christianized Roman Empire by the Goths and the Muslims. Further, the corruptions of the medieval papacy, the reign of Charlemagne, the Protestant Reformation, and the destruction wrought by Napoleon and Hitler have been seen as predicted by John.”[i]
Another characteristic weakness is that it tends to be myopic by limiting symbols to the expositors own contemporary situation. Accordingly, when one compares historicist commentaries from different eras, they seldom agree with one another. While their speculations on the identity of the Antichrist have run the gamut from Nero through Muhammad to Napoleon, arguably, until very recently, the dominant opinion since the reformation has been the pope, albeit not a single pope rather the office of the papacy.
However, it seems to us that some of this criticism is not valid. We agree that it is a weakness that a historicist commentator will usually believe his own period is the final one. But that is a very real part of the tension, which is inherent for Christians living in the already/not yet paradigm. Though it is also a weakness that historicists seldom agree, the fact that these interpretations are divergent on many details makes the areas where they do converge even more compelling. It is inescapable that they all converge on Rome and the papacy.
An often-heard criticism from historicists is that modern evangelicals who hold a futurist or preterist view have been influenced by the Jesuit Counter Reformation effort to discredit the historicist view of the reformers. We believe there is some truth to this conspiracy because the Romanists have vested interest in protecting the papacy. But a lot of the criticism we have read coming from historicists seems unfair. Truth be told, one could argue that historicism is also a Catholic invention. The dominant Catholic interpretation after Augustine’s City of God in the fifth century was allegorical. It was only after a mystic monk, Joachim of Fiore (1130–1202), introduced a chronological division based on three ages corresponding to the Trinity that the historical interpretation gained traction. So it really is not fair for historicists to charge everyone who disagrees with them as being influenced by Rome. Furthermore, it is a logical fallacy known as the genetic fallacy to deny the truth of a proposition based solely on its origin.[ii] The futurist interpretation is judged unfairly due to a few influential Jesuit advocates.
A Jesuit named Francisco Ribera published a Revelation commentary, In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, advocating the futurist view in 1590. Another Jesuit, Laconza, wrote under the name Ben-Ezra teaching the premillennial advent and literal restoration of Israel. As a means of criticism, strict historicists trace this through to John Nelson Darby, the Moody Bible Institute, and the Scofield Reference Bible. In other words, they argue that nineteenth-century dispensationalists fell for a counter-reformation propaganda campaign. They claim that the teachings of the reformers have been suppressed, drowned in a sea of Jesuit propaganda, i.e., futurism. Yet, it seems that even for a Jesuit, the imagery of Revelation 17 is too persuasive to deny. In fact, the Jesuit, Lacunza, actually wrote:
Rome, not idolatrous but Christian, not the head of the Roman empire but the head of Christendom, and centre of unity of the true church of the living God, may very well, without ceasing from this dignity, at some time or other incur the guilt, and before God be held guilty of fornication with the kings of the earth, and amenable to all its consequences. And in this there is not any inconsistency, however much her defenders may shake the head. And this same Rome, in that same state, may receive upon herself the horrible chastisement spoken of in the prophecy.[iii]
We do find it very interesting that even these Jesuits identified papal Rome as the woman who rides the beast. Although acknowledging that Rome certainly has an interest in obfuscating the classic historicist view, we are not under Rome’s spell in holding futurist views. The futurist interpretation is based on sound exegesis and the historical grammatical hermeneutic.
For instance, the reason we do not agree that the papacy is the ultimate realization of 2 Thessalonians’ “man of Sin” is purely exegetical. “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition” (2 Th 2:3). Paul was instructing his first-century readers that the judgment of God had not arrived because “the man” had not yet appeared. The Greek language is much more precise that English and the second declension noun, anthropos (man), is in the singular form. Paul’s teaching would be meaningless if he was referring to an institution lasting hundreds of years that had not yet appeared. For it to be helpful in identifying the day of the Lord he necessarily meant one man. Paul’s readers would have never understood it to mean the institution of the papacy. For them, it was very clearly an individual of whom it says the Lord “shall destroy with the brightness of his coming” (2 Th 2:8). This clearly speaks of one man who is present when Jesus returns. Thus, if one accurately accounts for grammar and context, this is necessarily an individual on the scene when Jesus returns. One should allow Paul’s intent be the guiding factor.
Another reason the historicist approach is not as widely known today is that it requires a great deal of study and knowledge of history. Take the massive eschatological study written by Edward Elliott in the nineteenth century called Horae Apocalypticae (“Hour of the Apocalypse”).[iv] At over 2,500 pages split into four volumes with copious footnotes, charts, and illustrations, Spurgeon called it “the standard work on the subject.”[v] Elliot argued Revelation was both the unrolling of a sealed scroll and the continuing drama of salvation history. He saw the first six seals as broken with the empire, decline, and fall of pagan Rome around AD 395. The six trumpets were various attacks by the Goths, Saracens, and Muslims with the Protestant Reformation ensuing at trumpet six. Because Daniel describes the Roman Empire, in terms of legs of iron (Dan 2:33), the split of Rome into Eastern and Western legs is evident in prophecy. He explained the two beasts of Revelation 17 in this way:
At the same time that in the particular symbolizations contained in this subsidiary Part of the Prophecy, viz. those of the ten-horned Beast itself, its chief minister the two-horned Beast, and the Image of the Beast—explained respectively of the Papal Empire, Papal Priesthood, and Papal Councils…[vi]
A major component in Horae Apocalypticae and most historicist readings is that the 1260 days in Revelation 12 are years in which the Church is subjected to persecution by papal Rome. This is an area where nearly all historicists find agreement, but where they disagree is when the 1260 year-long period began. In fact, the death knell of Elliot’s gargantuan work of scholarship was that it set a date which came and went. Unfortunately, Elliot placed the beginning of the 1260 years in AD 606 when the emperor Phocas rubberstamped Pope Boniface III’s claim for the primacy of Rome. We discuss this papal milestone in chapter 9 of Petrus Romanus, “Donation of Constantine and the Road to Hell.” Concerning this, Elliot wrote:
“At the same time that the fall and complete commencement of the period appeared on strong and peculiar historic evidence (especially that of the then risen ten diademed Romano-Gothic Papal horns) to have about synchronized with the epoch of Phocas’ decree A.D. 606; and the corresponding epoch of end with the year I866.”[vii]
Of course, 1866 came and went and the papacy under Pius IX even got bolder by claiming infallibility in 1870. However it is interesting in the same year, Napoleon’s advance led the Italian government to raid the Vatican and take the Papal States from the pope. However, the loss of temporal power was brief as Pius XI signed a pact with the fascist dictator Mussolini on February 11, 1929, restoring papal governing power to Vatican City. Even so, Elliot’s grand historical scheme was undone when 1866 passed with no second advent. This is another characteristic weakness of the historicist approach. It has this track record of failed date-setting.
Another famous failure was when a Baptist preacher, William Miller, predicted the imminent return of Jesus Christ. On the basis of Daniel 8:14, “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Miller became convinced that the twenty-three-hundred-day period started in 457 BC with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem by Artaxerxes I of Persia. Then using the day/year principle favored by historicists he calculated Christ’s return to occur in 1843. It is now famously called the Great Disappointment of 1844. Many folks had sold everything they owned because of this belief. Other groups resorted to rather pitiable lengths to preserve the date. Reaching for straws, they speculated that Miller’s assumption — that the sanctuary to be cleansed was the earth– was the problem and that it represented the sanctuary in heaven.
Accordingly, the October 22, 1844 date was modified to denote when Christ entered the Holy of Holies in the heavenly sanctuary, not the Second Coming. This group became the Seventh-day Adventist Church of today and this modification is called the doctrine of the pre-Advent Divine Investigative Judgment.[viii] Frankly, it seems like an excuse to us. Miller was simply wrong. The lesson to be learned here is that it is perfectly fine and even commendable to be fascinated by prophecy and to study various interpretations, but always follow Paul’s teaching in 2 Thessalonians. The purpose of that letter leads many interpreters to infer that some of the Thessalonians were so sure that the day of the Lord was upon them that they had quit their jobs. Paul admonished them in chapter 3 to remain steadfast maintaining their lives and testimonies. We encourage you to do the same. We want to be upfront that the ideas in this book concerning the Malachy prophecy with dates and times are speculative. We are only pointing out what others have written. It is always wise to be prepared, but we certainly do not recommend selling all of your possessions like the Millerites!
Here is an elaborate chart which was popular prior to 1844 showing many historical events in the Millerite historical framework:
Next week we will examine the historicist views of Jonathan Edwards and a prominent Presbyterian who predicted the year 2012 back in 1876!
[i] G. K. Beale, The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text (Grand Rapids, Michigan; Carlisle, Cumbria: W.B. Eerdmans; Paternoster Press, 1999), 46.
[ii] “Genetic Fallacy,” Fallacy Files, http://www.fallacyfiles.org/genefall.html
[iii] Manuel Lacunza, Edward Irving, The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, Volume 1 (Seeley, 1827) pg. 252.
[iv] The entire set is available for free on the Pertrus Romanus Giveaway Disc.
[v] Charles Spurgeon, Commentating on Commenataries (London: Passmore and Alabaster; 1876) p. 199
[vi] Edward Elliot, Horae Apocalypticae vol 4, (London: Seeley, Burnside, and Seely, 1847), 233
[vii] Edward Elliot, Horae Apocalypticae vol 4, 237..
[viii] Roy Adams, “The Pre-Advent Judgment” Adventist World, last accessed January 27, 2012, http://www.adventistworld.org/article.php?id=136.
About Cris Putnam
It is so very interesting to follow the trail that the papacy has left and to wonder how it all fits in with end time prophecy. Are they currently acting according to a script or is it the true fulfillment of prophecy? Guessing that this is the million dollar question…..Can’t wait for the book!
Blessings in Christ Jesus and Happy Resurrection Day to all!
April 06, 2012
If one reads the next email that we shall send out to you; it is you will see the underlying corruption and what came from the background too as to where the false teaching of a Pre Tribulation false Rapture theory originated. For it is that this doctrine of man has infiltrated much into the Christian Church of Jesus Christ.
In sharing we explain in detail where this doctrine of a Pre Tribulation Rapture originally came from. It is documented in this next Email. The names are mentioned in the above attachment. The false teaching that many of the Church of Jesus Christ and the many pastors and the TV Evangelists also teach in that the Church shall not partake of the Great Tribulation that is at the door now and will be caught away in what, they teach as a Rapture. For in that which is not true in what is brought into the churches that came through what is erroneous methods of deception.
Our next article sent to you is called “Rapture or Resurrection.” This teaching will make some of you re-think, we pray– and to re-examine perhaps what you have been taught for many years that is not true unto the consistency of All Scripture concerning the coming of the Lord.
Take note of the names here. For a Catholic Jesuit named Francisco Ribera and another man named Laconza as these men are written of in the attachment. Much again in this attachment is men’s views and speculations and is Only the Spirit of Truth that can interpret the mind of our God.
And this can be done as we see as Daniel 12:3 tells us the teachers that are wise that shine like the brightness of the firmament that shall turn many to righteousness…etc. And as Daniel writes reading for us found in Daniel 12:7-11. Daniel was seeing the End Time in which we are now living in as this goes alone with the sounding of the seventh trump as written in Revelation 10:7 and Colossians 1:26-29. The disclosing of the Mystery of what is Christ in You Our hope of GLORY!!! This all comes at the end as we move into the Coming of the Lord in Resurrection Power and Life as He our KING is glorified in his saints!!!
Daniel 12:7-11
“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; (THREE AND ONE HALF YEARS) and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.”
8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?”
9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.”
10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.”
11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.”
In Revelation chapter 5 we see the Opening of the Seals of the BOOK by THE LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH our LORD and KING Jesus Christ who prevailed to Open the Book that has been sealed with Seven Seals!
..The first seal is seen in the GOING FORTH as Isaiah writes in see Isaiah 13:3-13 seen as the Lord’s White Horse that Goes forth in a War in Rightousness conquering and to conquer! Revelation 6:1-2. It is this White Horse that is the same White Horse seen in Revelation 19:11-18. But will we believe it?
The Word also tells us in Daniel 12:4 in God’s time knowledge shall increase. Not only natural knowledge in technology and weapons of war in the natural also in science and medicine etc. But in many inventions coming from what is the mind of man void of God Almighty the Creator of All things good. This that is what is increasing in Transhumanism as well just like Noah’s day all over again.
But what is the spiritual knowledge of the HOLY One who is our God is increasing as WELL. He is revealing what He our God is going to do! Amen!
The words of the Book are sealed or shut– only until the time of the end and we that can see the time of the end is here. For as we are the generation that shall be here at the coming and what is in what is the revealing from heaven of our God as he,– comes with his holy angels in flaming fire. This then is the time of when the Day of the Lord begins—IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days seen in Revelation 12 and chapter 13 and if you are one that is inclined to study as we are all are to do. Read Revelation chapter 14:1-20.
2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-12
“Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;”
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,”
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”
11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:”
12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
And we do not have 21 years to wait!
Also let us take note Francisco Ribera the man who published a Revelation commentary, In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, advocating the futurist view of what is called a Pre Tribulation Rapture as well found in his writings. His writings that were published in the year 1590. Another Jesuit, named Mr. Laconza, wrote under an anonymous name of what was Ben-Ezra (sounding very Jewish) in his teaching of what is the premillennial advent.- (What is erroneously taught as a Pre Tribulation Rapture of the church-)
See the next Email sent to you under the title RAPTURE OR RESURRECTION.
Share it with others.
Jesus said, ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
_____
Teach a wise man and he shall become even wiser. For it is
with wisdom comes understanding of what is the fear of the Lord and with wisdom comes knowledge and understanding of righteousness of the HOLY.
Wise words sent unto Wise men
________
Rosemary A. LaVigne
The Sound of a Trumpet- Storm Warning
The Lion Hath Roared Publications
P.O Box 5348
Pagosa Springs, Co 81147 USA
Email R888@centurytel.net
MEAT IN DUE SEASON
______________
I do not take a hard position on rapture timing but the idea that it first appeared with Darby and as a result of the Jesuit counter reformation has been proven false.
Hi Cris,
“It was only after a mystic monk, Joachim of Fiore (1130–1202), introduced a chronological division based on three ages corresponding to the Trinity that the historical interpretation gained traction. So it really is not fair for historicists to charge everyone who disagrees with them as being influenced by Rome.”
I would like to point out that the monk you mention was well before the Jesuit counter-reformation and as such not a valid argument to counter the accusation that dispensationalists were influenced by Jesuit propaganda.
I agree with you that historicity has it’s problems and this is due to the fact that we can only know that a prophetic even has been fulfilled after the fact and not before. I take the view that there is many start dates for the 42 months and that they are cyclical in nature. John’s vision gives the Church symbols so that they can be interpreted by every generation of Christian.
Anyone who calculates the date for when the Lord will return and then leads a movement is a false prophet and as such is not a good example to use as the standard of historicity. You have used a clever sophistic tactic in your augmentation against historicity but you still haven’t convinced me that dispensationalism and futurism are correct. Keep in mind that I agree with you the the man of sin the son of perdition is the 8th King and final Antichrist, but I hold this from a historicist view point and not a dispensational one.
Looking back we can see that the correct starting date for the rise of the beast is the year 538AD (as I have mentioned before) and that in 1798 the beast received the wound to the head and that in 1929 the deadly wound was healed and now we await the 8th King that go’s into perdition. We have seen six Kings since 1929 and are living under the rule of the seventh King. All the Demons seem to be planing for the 8th to come out of the bottom less pit this year but that in my view is up to the Lord and not the Demons. We shall have to wait and see if this is correct but this still dose not make the seven year literal Great Tribulation a fact, on the contrary it make it a fiction. If the Demons are correct in there understanding of the times then this year is the year when Apollyon
rules the world for five months which might be 150 years or it might be 5 precessional months!!! who know? Only the Lord and he will arrive at the appointed time.
If you are correct and I am correct then Rome should be destroyed soon but let us not be fool buy the Devil and his Devils into thinking that this will be the start of a literal 7 years a the end of time. The view that John departed from the traditional scriptural use of a day for a year prophetic principal is total nonsense. Show me by comparing scripture with scripture that this is the case and I will consider the literal 7 year GT argument again.
Num_14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
Eze_4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
“each day for a year”
In Christ.
*Reposting this from previous entry,without links,as it has been Awaiting Moderation and thought maybe that was causing the delay?*
I’m glad to see the subject of Zionism come up. To me,it is always like the 800 lb elephant in the room. Why do so few discuss it? Because they get accused of anti-semetism,that’s usually why.
I haven’t read this book yet about the Last Pope,but I read the review first and it made me think of something else I had read.
This is the review:
“The idea by some Catholics that the next pope on St. Malachy’s list heralds the beginning of “great apostasy” followed by “great tribulation” sets the stage for the imminent unfolding of apocalyptic events, something many non-Catholics would agree with. This would give rise to a false prophet, who according to the book of Revelation leads the world’s religious communities into embracing a political leader known as Antichrist. In recent history, several Catholic priests—some deceased now—have been surprisingly outspoken on what they have seen as this inevitable danger rising from within the ranks of Catholicism as a result of secret satanic “Illuminati-Masonic” influences. These priests claim secret knowledge of an multinational power elite and occult hierarchy operating behind supranatural and global political machinations. Among this secret society are sinister false Catholic infiltrators…..”
From the book of Protocols,the one always claimed to be a “forgery” and a cause for “anti-semetism”,it says:
…”By this diversion we shall penetrate to its very bowels and be sure we shall never come out again until we have gnawed through the entire strength of this place.”
(Are these the “infiltrators” being referred to perhaps?)
I don’t think that applies only to the Catholic church,as we know many publically-revered pastors to have been 33rd degree Freemasons,and all one needs to do is search Freemasons and Zionism to see they are entwined. So this could also relate to the entire Christian denominations being “gutted” so to speak,of their true message and strength.
But back to the matter of the Popes,also in that same shunned book it says this:
“The King of the Jews will be the real Pope of the Universe,the patriarch of an international Church”.
Leading up to it,is this:
…”When the time comes finally to destroy the papal court the finger of an invisible hand will point the nations towards this court. When, however, the nations fling themselves upon it, we shall come forward in the guise of its defenders as if to save excessive bloodshed. By this diversion we shall penetrate to its very bowels and be sure we shall never come out again until we have gnawed through the entire strength of this place. (Karl Rothschild acted as “peacemaker” between the Vatican and her enemies, loaning the Vatican five million pounds in a period of difficulty. Gregory XVI conferred a Papal decoration on Kalman Rothschild since when Rothschilds have been “Guardians of the Vatican Treasury”). ”
Maybe Tom and Chris would like to add this to their list of reference and research material,if they haven’t already?
Lee,
There is compelling evidence that the Protocols were written by the Jesuits to shift the blame for their own activities to the Jews: http://www.historicism.com/misc/protocols.htm
Chris,
That link starts out by saying…”IT IS ADMITTED by all intelligent people that the so-called “Protocols of the Wise men of Zion” are criminal forgeries, and could never have been written either by a group of Jews or Freemasons… ”
That is a familiar way of appeaking to one’s vanity and herding them along to believe they aren’t smart unless they agree with the “experts”! Sounds like manipulation to me. Alot like “Nothing to see here,folks! Move along!”
Master manipulators and agents of absolute deception,if you ask me.
But there will always be those who want to look into this further,and those who will look the other way as they are told.
I’m not going to tell anyone what to believe. Just wanted to share what has been written as it applied to the subject at hand.
Hi Lee,
You are so correct in what you are saying, the Rothschild’s and the rest of the Synagogue of Satan wrote the Protocols of the Elder Brothers of Zion. The first revolutionary they financed was Oliver Cromwell and then the French Revolution and every other revolution since then. You can track there activity’s back to the Sanhedrin in Constantinople in the 1600’s. The Traditionalist Catholics have great evidence in this regard but they seem to miss the Jesuit connection when ever they expose the Masonic/Synagogue of Satan infiltration of the Vatican. It is a simple fact that Torah believing Jews are Antichrist and as such enemy’s of the true Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. How Christians today are so gullible is beyond me!!! Christian/Zionism is an oxymoron and how the promoters of this heresy get away with it is also beyond me!!!
Sanhedrin 43a. Says Jesus (“Yeshu” and in Soncino footnote #6, Yeshu “the Nazarene”) was executed because he practiced sorcery: “It is taught that on the eve of Passover Jesus was hung, and forty days before this the proclamation was made: Jesus is to be stoned to death because he has practiced sorcery and has lured the people to idolatry…He was an enticer and of such thou shalt not pity or condone.”
Kallah 51a.”The elders were once sitting in the gate when two young lads passed by; one covered his head and the other uncovered his head. Of him who uncovered his head Rabbi Eliezer remarked that he is a bastard. Rabbi Joshua remarked that he is the son of a niddah (a child conceived during a woman’s menstrual period). Rabbi Akiba said that he is both a bastard and a son of a niddah.
“They said, ‘What induced you to contradict the opinion of your colleagues?’ He replied, “I will prove it concerning him.” He went to the lad’s mother and found her sitting in the market selling beans.
“He said to her, ‘My daughter, if you will answer the question I will put to you, I will bring you to the world to come.’ (eternal life). She said to him, ‘Swear it to me.’
“Rabbi Akiba, taking the oath with his lips but annulling it in his heart, said to her, ‘What is the status of your son?’ She replied, ‘When I entered the bridal chamber I was niddah (menstruating) and my husband kept away from me; but my best man had intercourse with me and this son was born to me.’ Consequently the child was both a bastard and the son of a niddah.
“It was declared, ‘..Blessed be the God of Israel Who Revealed His Secret to Rabbi Akiba…”
In addition to the theme that God rewards clever liars, the preceding Talmud discussion is actually about Jesus Christ (the bastard boy who “uncovered his head” and was conceived in the filth of menstruation). The boy’s adulterous mother in this Talmud story is the mother of Christ, Blessed Mary (called Miriam and sometimes, Miriam the hairdresser, in the Talmud).
In Christ.
Lee,
If you do a minimal amount of honest research it is easy to see the protocols were manufactured propaganda to pin the blame on the Jews, what you need to ask yourself is who had the most interest in diversion at that time… I say Rome.
They wrote that because no serious historian believes the Protocols are genuine. It’s not an appeal to vanity rather to a commonly known and well established fact. The article at Historicism.com makes a good case the protocols are Jesuit propaganda. They show a strong literary relationship to other Jesuit documents as well as other evidence. The literary similarity to “The Secrets of the Elders of Bourg-Fontaine” is very compelling! Handle the evidence.
Rome has a long track record of forging such documents and they had a vested interest in blaming the Jews. At that time in history – it was Rome who had designs on world power and Rome has persecuted Jews throughout history. Adolf Hitler was a Roman Catholic and he used the Protocols as his justification for the Holocaust. Now seems like you guys are believing the lie. Rome is also a prime promoter of replacement theology (Rome demonstrably does not support dispensationalism). Perhaps, you guys are the ones deceived by Rome?
Of course Rome is trying to get control of Jerusalem right now… it all fits.
Hi Cris,
Pseudo-Ephraem lol!!! sounds like Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra had another pseudonym. Really Cris you need to stop believing everything the Catholic Church and it’s Jesuit fronts like Liberty University pass your way. The Vatican have been forging documents for hundreds of years, you are only throwing this curve ball at me coz you want to win the argument and your willing to align yourself with Liberty University and the likes of Jerry Falwel, Tim LaHaye and there buddy Sun Myung Moon to do it.
That’s just said Cris, I really thought better of you than that.
In Christ.
Good Soldier, like I said I am not dogmatic on any rapture position but this seems to be an early example of a pretrib belief. Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem is a well known document there are several versions Greek, Syrian and Latin. It is a controversial passage but I see no reason that Rome would want to promote the rapture belief, how does that serve their designs? Their eschatology is that Rome conquers the world and then Jesus returns. It doesn’t fit their M.O. I document Rome’s history of forging and altering documents in the book. But you have not made any case for that. If you can offer some contrary evidence instead of throwing up logical fallacies (genetic fallacy, ad hominem et al) then by all means, we can discuss it. So far you are just kicking up dust. Read the paper and handle the data. When you done here is a 14th century rapture citation: http://francisgumerlock.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/A%20Rapture%20Citation%20in%20the%20Fourteenth%20Century.pdf
BTW I have a masters degree in theology from Liberty University, (they are not a Jesuit front rofl) now I am taking biblical languages at Southeastern Baptist. Please engage the data instead of name calling and sophistry. You really should look up the genetic fallacy and try to modify your style of discussion accordingly.
Chris,
Believe whatever you want. A lot of people see it otherwise. I don’t think it is as simple as you make it out to be,but that’s just my opinion.
Lee,
Please read the article at Historicism.com and think about it, he makes a good case based on other similar documents the Jesuits created the protocols – the new article in the catholic news is a dead giveaway as well.
Hi Cris,
You said: So far you are just kicking up dust. Read the paper and handle the data. When you done here is a 14th century rapture citation:.. What you failed to mention is the paper is written by Francis Gumerlock who has a Ph.D. from Saint Louis University, Historical Theology. Saint Louis University is a Catholic, Jesuit university, and you have the shamefaced audacity to say “Now seems like you guys are believing the lie.” Please Cris your only showing your cards by using Jesuit Theologians as your basis for believing that the Pre-Trib rapture idea was not a Jesuit invented doctrine.
As for the connection between Hitler and the Rothschilds: Alois Schicklgruber, Adolf’s father, was the illegitimate son of Maria Anna Schicklgruber and Baron Rothschild. Now all I had to do to confirm this as highly possible was research who funded Hitler in world war two. Now why you ask would the Rothschilds allow Hitler to kill Jews? and the answer is perfectly simple, the majority of the Jews killed in WW II were not Hebrew but Khazarian Jews and as such nothing but Goym (human cattle) that were used as a political tool to manipulate the Christian world into creating the state of Israel. There is no separation between the Synagogue of Satan/House of Rothschild, the Vatican and the Anglo American/British Empire. They are the 3 City Sates that run the world Vatican City, London City and Washington DC. So to say that the Jesuits wrote the Protocol is correct but it is also correct to say that the Rothschilds implemented them.
I really didn’t know that you had a masters degree in theology from Liberty University, if I had I would have never bothered commenting on this forum. If you think that Liberty University is not controlled by the Jesuits then your ether extremely naive or your working with them. Go do your research into Jerry Falwell and his connection to Sun Myung Moon if you don’t believe me.
Mat_7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Peace Be With You.
In Christ.
Good Soldier, I see you didn’t bother to look up the Genetic fallacy.
Chris,
I actually have already been down that route! I was there before I wound up where I stand now. I hate to say much about it because it is so often misconstrued into something called “anti-semitism”.
Earlier you said “Look at history,…who stood to gain?” Fair question. And you could also ask yourself, “Are the Protocols working out as planned?” I think they are,and I think the Bible backs that up. I think the same powers and principalities Jesus was up against in His day are still at work,and 2000 + years is not too long to have continued on in various shapes and forms.
Beyond all that,the power at the base of it all is Satan and I’ll leave it at that. Gentiles and Jews alike have made their deals with him,so I’m not saying the conspiracy is inclusive of only one race.
I’ll do my “honest research” and you do yours. If we disagree,it’s no big deal to me. We all have to go at our own pace and that means sometimes changing our minds about what we once believed. It’s called the process of elimination,and it is a good tool.
Frankly,what the mainstream Christians teach these days sounds too “scripted” or something. Too much is left out,in my opinion,and it’s absence to me raises suspicion.
And for the record,I don’t think Dispensationalism is so much to take the onus off of Rome as to favor the modern state of Israel we see today.
I think there may be some truth to the “Secret Six” and the influence of Sam Untermeyer behind Zionism and Scofield…? While at it,maybe a quick study of Noahide Laws + Beheading + Education Day would raise some other questions?
I could go on,but it won’t do any good.
Time will tell what’s what. If I’m wrong,I can accept that. My salvation isn’t based on what I know,but who I know,and I’ve been wrong before!
Lee,
I am glad to read your comment “If I’m wrong,I can accept that. My salvation isn’t based on what I know,but who I know,and I’ve been wrong before!” I really appreciate your humility and I agree, we are all only speculating. It is important not to take ourselves too seriously as history has plenty of cases where end times ideas/dates have failed. I find it interesting but am not rigid on any particular view. I try to square it to exegesis and history. After taking the church history sequence in seminary I became convinced that Rome abandoned the biblical Gospel which led me to investigate the historicist school and become open to its potential veracity.
As far as the protocols it is the literary similarity to a known and admitted earlier Jesuit creation “The Secrets of the Elders of Bourg-Fontaine” is what convinced me. I don’t see how you can explain away the obvious parallels – its like they started with it and just modified it to implicate the Jews. It is also a historical fact that it was Rome’s usury laws that forced Jews into the banking business. Rome made it illegal for Christains to lend money at interest and they simultaneously passed laws where Jews could not work in many trades. This is all demonstrable from papal decrees and laws passed in the “Holy Roman Empire” – I document it all in the book.
Chris,
I am still teachable,but I am more skeptical than ever. Especially if I read a tone implying “all smart people think this way” or “Experts all agree…” Ya know what I mean? It’s all very persuasive if one isn’t careful. I’ve been fooled before.
Wasn’t Jesus speaking to the Jews when He said this? If that is the case,couldn’t He be accused also of “making the Jews look bad”?
“You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”~John 8:44
Please tell me then also what to make of this verse. Isn’t it significant?
“I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars–I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.”~Revelation 3:9
Lee,
Jesus was speaking to a specific group of Pharisees in Jn 8:44. I do not think you can justifying extrapolating that out to the whole race, after all the disciples were Jews and early church was mostly Jewish. Paul’s argument in Romans 11 is pretty decisive on their hope for the future.
“As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”(Ro 11:28–29)
Revelation 3:9 was written to real church in Philapdelphia the 1st century. It dealt with a problem in that church. Here is what GK Beale (who I mentioned to JohnB) says in the ICC Commentary on the Greek text:
Revelation 12 talks about the woman clothed in the sun (a symbol for Israel). According to that chapter, Satan has been pursuing them and fueling the fires against them ever since the first century (it mentions the ascension). The RCC and the Holy Roman empire persecuted the Jews for all of the middle ages. It was the popes who started the yellow badges and ghettos centuries before Hitler. This is all documented in the book too. He was simply copying them. I know most in Israel now are very secular and even occult (Kabbala etc) but that was the same problem in the OT too. Its not about their behavior its about God’s election and his promises. None of us earn the right to be saved (Rom 5:8) by our good behavior (that’s Catholic doctrine).
Chris,
I’m not the one condoning racism of any kind. Unlike certain other groups,who will say things like “If a Jew kills a Christian he commits no sin.” (Unless you want me to believe the Jesuits wrote the Talmud,also?)
….”Why is the Talmud kept so unknown to non-Jews? Why was there no usable English translation of the Talmud until the Soncino Edition, 1934-48? Why, in European history, when the laws of the Talmud became commonly known, was it burned over and over by order of the Popes, excoriated by Martin Luther, denounced everywhere, and its followers exiled from one country after another down through the centuries?
…..The Talmud’s basic law is that only the Pharisee Jew ranks as a man, or human being. All others rank as animals, “the people who are like an ass — slaves who are considered the property of the master.” The attitude resulting from such teachings has been resented by non-Jews in all countries and centuries. Such resentment, however, is always portrayed by Jews as “persecution of the Jews.”
(Quoted from Come-and-hear dot com)
I find those sites very helpful in learning things I would never have considered before,and to me clearly traces the powers then to the powers today. And Kabbalism to me screams out “Mystery Religion!” and seems to be creeping more and more into mainstream. (See the THRIVE Movement,for instance.)
I in no way directed my criticism of Zionism to include “all Jews”,no more than I think “thugs” represent all blacks or “rednecks” portray all whites.
Just imagine though,a satanic sect hiding behind the banner of “God’s Chosen”! Wouldn’t that make the most diabolical crime story?
Thee is a very large population of Jews who do not support the modern state of Israel,the Israel that flies this star,…see Amos 5:26-27
Whenever I have been on a couple of Christian forums and criticize the actions of the nation of Israel,I am accused of all kinds of things,such as “being of the enemy”,being “anti-semitic”,even if I quote the words of Jews themselves to make the point!
Look,you’re probably a busy guy. We don’t have to continue this conversation. And I know if you change your opinion down the line,you will probably lose a vast segment of those who read your books now. It is not fruitful to be against “Israel” these days. In fact,you may see the laws more enforced in that area over time,as “hate-speech”.
I have appreciated your replies. I will hold my opinions lightly and see how things play out.
Oh,I was really surprised to learn that the Jews have a prophecy in the Zohar about the return of their Messiah in perhaps the year 2012 also! I thought that only applied to the Mayans and groups like that.
So many layers to pull back,…so little time…?
Lee,
I don’t think it is too much of a stretch to think there is a secret sect working behind the scenes; I just think it’s important to keep in mind its not limited to one race or people group. Mankind is sinful by nature. The thing we need to keep in mind when peering into these dark areas is the mastermind intelligence is supernatural: “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.”(Eph 6:12)
As for seeing the Big Picture,having said this in a previous post:
“Beyond all that,the power at the base of it all is Satan and I’ll leave it at that. Gentiles and Jews alike have made their deals with him,so I’m not saying the conspiracy is inclusive of only one race.”
And there we can agree!
Thanks for your time.
Hello! I am a Catholic and I have just read your book, “Petrus Romanus”. This is a real eye-opener for me that I am seriously considering leaving the Catholic faith. I am in a spiritual dilemma right now–which church do I now turn to if this is even necessary? Can I just pray and read the Bible on my own without having to seek out a church with a pastor? Non-Catholics are persecuted in my family and country.
Suzy, I sent you an email, I will try to help in any way I can.
Hi Suzy,
This scripture came to mind when I read your post.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
I’m not going to tell you what to do but as an ex-Catholic I can tell you that the Lord Jesus Christ who is come in the flesh will comfort you no matter what the persecution you face. To answer your question about finding a new Church to go to this scripture comes to mind.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Now if you are believe in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross for your salvation and not on Catholic traditions then you have been sealed with the Holy Spirit and that makes you the temple of God. No earthly building or what the world calls a Church is the temple of God the scriptures are clear that believers are God temple.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Read the Bible for your self and seek the Holy Spirit to teach it to you as the Protestant world is full of the doctrines of men just like the Catholic world. Protestantism in my view is a daughter of Mystery Babylon who is the mother of harlots after all. So spend some time studying the word of God and seeking his face before you go jumping from the frying pan into the fire.
God Bless
Catholicism Invented the Rapture? C’mon!
Many web sites claim that a 16th century Jesuit Catholic priest named Francisco Ribera taught an early form of the famous evangelical “rapture” that reportedly precedes and is disconnected from the final Second Coming.
To see the actual thrust of this claim, Google “Francisco Ribera taught a rapture 45 days before the end of Antichrist’s future reign.”
But no one ever quotes even one sentence from Ribera’s monumental commentary on the Book of Revelation which is said to be the source of the 45-day rapture claim.
Claimants are challenged to produce Ribera’s own words on this matter. If they cannot, their names should be blazoned on the web as hysterical historians! (BTW, no other Catholic leader, including Jesuit priest Manuel Lacunza, has ever taught a prior rapture.)
Curious about the real beginnings of the same mystical “fly-away” belief (a.k.a. the “pre-tribulation rapture”) that has captivated many evangelical leaders including Darby, Scofield, Lindsey, Falwell, LaHaye, and Hagee? Google “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.”
[the preceding snippet was spotted recently on the amazing net.]
Beth, Lacunza and Ribera indirectly contributed to the rise of dispensationalism but as far as I know the apostle Paul “invented” the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, as to the timing of when it will occur, that is still vigorously debated.