Popular author Rob Skiba is intentionally deceiving his followers. It is a matter of public record that I have confronted him concerning his denial of the trinity, specifically the personhood of the Holy Spirit. Terms like “trinity” have specific definitions that reasonable people agree on in order to make communication possible. Think about it this way, if I decided to redefine the word “red” to match the color green and then started stopping at green lights I would cause a traffic accident. Well Skiba is causing a theological pileup on the freeway. Recently he published a statement of faith on the internet. His disingenuousness ( I will prove) is apparent right from the start in point number one:
I believe in one eternal God whose name is YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4). He is the Father of the only begotten Son, Yeshua (a.k.a. Jesus – John 3:16) , and He has sent His Holy Spirit to empower, comfort and encourage us in our walk with Him. I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one (Genesis 1:1-4; Isaiah 11:1-5; John 1:1-14; 10:30; 17:11; 1 John 5:7), thus, commonly referred to as the Trinity. [1]
He wants people to read it and think he is affirming the trinity. But he really is not. The above statement is intentionally deceptive. I have undeniable proof that he does not believe what is “commonly referred to as the Trinity.” He argues vigorously against the trinity and my facebook notes comment section have a record of it. What is “commonly referred to as the trinity” is undeniably “one God in Three persons.” Here are some sources.
Pocket Dictionary of Apologetics & Philosophy of Religion:
Trinity. The Christian understanding of God as triune. Trinity means that the one divine nature is a unity of three persons and that God is revealed as three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The ultimate basis for the Christian doctrine of the Trinity lies in the divine self-disclosure in Jesus, who as the Son revealed the Father and poured out the Holy Spirit. See also economic Trinity; immanent Trinity.[1A]
Here’s another theological dictionary:
Trinity A reference to the doctrine that God is one and yet exists eternally in three persons.[2]
Even a non-specialist dictionary like Webster’s gets it right:
Trin•i•ty \ˈtri-nə-tē\ n
[ME trinite, fr. AF trinité, fr. LL trinitat-, trinitas state of being threefold, fr. L trinus threefold] 13c
1 : the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma
2 not cap : a group of three closely related persons or things
3 : the Sunday after Whitsunday observed as a feast in honor of the Trinity[3]
It doesn’t get any more “common” than Webster’s. Clearly, what is commonly referred to as the trinity is the belief in “one God in three persons.” Rob denies the Holy Spirit is a person just like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons. This is Rob’s comment from our facebook discussion that first alarmed me to his cultic theology.
Skiba denies Holy Spirit and calls Trinity doctrine the “real heresy.”
Note in the last paragraph he writes the majority view (one God in three persons) “is the very definition of absolute heresy.” So he has effectively called every Christian theologian over the last 1700 years a heretic. He has no respect for anyone who has come before him and, as shown in previous posts, his cultist views are based on a surface reading of an English translation. Very poor form. But now he publishes a faith statement giving the reader the impression he affirms what he so vehemently denies? His conscience is apparently seared. He is very well aware that what he believes is far removed from what is “commonly called the trinity.” So why is Rob misleading you about his beliefs? He wants to keep his fans and followers who might (and should) leave his fold if he told the truth.
It is common practice amongst the cults. For example The Way International holds a similar stance. Ken Boa writes, “The Way often uses the right terminology but in the wrong way.”[4] Similarly, “Theosophy proceeds deceitfully and parasitically by its practice of using (misusing) Christian terminology.”[5] Also, “Though this cult uses Christian terminology to communicate its mystical Eastern concepts to a Western audience, it is vehemently opposed to every major tenet of biblical Christianity.”[6] If it walks like a duck then it’s probably a ___ *quack! Skiba’s deceptive faith statement is clearly cultic because it uses known Christian theology to deceive followers into thinking he affirms Christian doctrine. If you follow Rob Skiba’s teaching and attend his church you have joined ranks with these cult groups listed here. Birds of a feather…
Addendum, here’s another argument from Skiba that clearly shows he does not believe “what is commonly referred to as the trinity”:
[1] Rob Skiba, “Statement of Faith” http://www.babylonrisingblog.com/Faith.html (accessed September 24, 2013).
[1A] C. Stephen Evans, Pocket Dictionary of Apologetics & Philosophy of Religion (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2002), 118.
[2]Millard J. Erickson, The Concise Dictionary of Christian Theology, Rev. ed., 1st Crossway ed. (Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books, 2001), 204.
[3] Merriam-Webster, Inc. Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary. Eleventh ed. Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc., 2003.
[4]Kenneth Boa, Cults, World Religions, and the Occult (Canada; England: Victor Books, 1990), 244.
[5] Boa, Cults, World Religions, and the Occult, 138.
[6]Boa, Cults, World Religions, and the Occult, 131.
About Cris Putnam
A brilliant, yet simple way to explain how Rob is causing confusion. I think those who do not know the Word thoroughly, do not know how to defend it, so they just want everyone to get along. They fail to see the urgency in this matter. How can a person have faith in God if they do not know Him so intimately as to know, understand and able to explain who He is? Let`s not forget the love He has for us, His desires for all men.
Satan is the author of confusion as we know. It is Satan who wants to make a train wreck of the faith of men. I think there is much pride that has been displayed and it will take great humility for Rob to just stop and seek the True God. Acknowledge his mistake to help those who have been/are being deceived
Rev 12:12
“Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Now is not the time to give in, but to armor up, study and pray. If we even can pull one man out of this pit of confusion all of Heaven will rejoice!
If Skiba or anyone is in denial of the ((Divinity/deity)) of the Father and of the Son and of The Holy Spirit ,Then it is heresy.
However; to comprehend the Divine Godhead outside the (traditional formula) does not classify heresy! we may see things from another perspective without rejecting the deity of the Godhead.
Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah Yet Christians embrace them as God’s people.
There is a lot to be said about heresy!
He believes the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force used by the Father… that’s not the trinity.
I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force, I certainly do not adhere to that, He is the very Power of God Himself.
Chuckles; I think you got me confused with Hopeful watcher!
Correction! I do not believe the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force either.
It has an intellect, a personality, motive, etc. Heck, there are even times it has displayed a sense of humor. Just not a physical body, lest we could never embody the Holy Spirit.
Hopeful-watcher; I was not implying that you believed that the Holy Spirit is a force. I think chuckles is a bit bamboozled in his effort to correct the heretics who see the truth from another perspective.
The reality is that neither you or I are denying the Deity of the Godhead. If that was to be the case that the deity of the Godhead was denied then the charge of heresy from Chuckles would be valid. This is what Skiba is obviously doing. an I object that Chuckles puts me in the same camp.
Furthermore; Jesus said That “The Father and Himself would make their abode within the believer” Jn14:23 And Apostle Paul says that we are the temple of ‘God’ and that the ‘Spirit of God’ dwells in you. 1Cor3:16 and Apostle Peter says we are partakers of the Divine Nature (Godhead) 2Pet1:4
I believe that with all my heart .Now if the Spirit is an impersonal force, then the words of Jesus and that of His Apostles as shown above would be false. God forbid!
Thanks jaz. I didn’t think you were, but I wanted to be clear about my position. One misstep around here and your voted out of the club.
He did not say that
Jaz said:
“f Skiba or anyone is in denial of the ((Divinity/deity)) of the Father and of the Son and of The Holy Spirit ,Then it is heresy.”
You have said it, yourself, jaz.
What you and so many Trinity-denial-deniers fail to comprehend is that person-hood is an essential aspect of deity. If an entity is not a person, that entity cannot be deity. Deity is not just “supernatural”. True deity is the state or condition of being God–self-existent, infinite, omnipotent, un-created, without limit, eternal creator GOD.
Yes, the word “deity” is sometimes used of false gods (angels masquerading as gods). Angels are indeed supernatural beings (and persons as well, btw) but they are not deity–true God. They were created by God; they are finite creatures.
So, in denying that the Holy Spirit is a person, Skiba (and you) certainly do deny the deity of the Holy Spirit, and yes that is an old heresy.
I know, I’ve posted that simple fact before. You didn’t get it then, I’m not surprised that you haven’t gotten it yet.
But the Lord still does miracles.
Chuckles; I do not believe that when the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters Gen1:2 that He was a separate entity detached From God. Do you? If you do, then you deny the omnipresence of God By his Spirit. The catholic trinity doctrine implies this error by it’s statement God the Holy Spirit.
Did God the Father say to Jesus, here you are Son Create the heavens and the earth? or did God SPEAK them into being? Gen1:3
Please, don’t tie me in with Skiba, I am as far from His Hebrew theology as you are from Apostolic Truth….
.
jaz said:
“Chuckles; I do not believe that when the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters Gen1:2 that He was a separate entity detached From God.”
Neither do I. See, jaz, here’s why you don’t get the Trinity: You don’t know what the doctrine even is.
According to Trinitarian doctrine as it is found in the Bible, there are three equal persons in the one God. Being a distinct Person does not make the Holy Spirit a separate entity detached from God. The Trinity is a tri-UNITY The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct, BUT NOT SEPARATE!!! Three Persons in one God; such is the biblical Trinity.
Certainly, the Holy Spirit was moving, hovering over the waters (Gen. 1:2), yes. Does “moving” or “hovering” disqualify Him from being a Person? Of course not!
“If you do, then you deny the omnipresence of God By his Spirit.”
Did God withdraw His presence from King Saul? The Bible says He did (1Sam. 18:12). Does that mean God was no longer omnipresent, simply because He withdrew from Saul? Of course not! Since the Holy Spirit is God (not just a “manifestation” or “aspect” of God), He can withdraw from a creature in a finite sense, yet still be omnipresent, being the infinite God. Being infinite lets Him do that kind of thing, and other things which we finite creatures can’t get our limited minds around.
“The catholic trinity doctrine implies this error by it’s statement God the Holy Spirit.”
I’ll say it one more time: The Trinity is not a Catholic Doctrine (as to its origin). It is a Biblical doctrine, a fact which you just might see if you would study Scripture without your own ill-informed assumptions to blind you.
“Did God the Father say to Jesus, here you are Son Create the heavens and the earth? or did God SPEAK them into being? Gen1:3”
Your apparent ignorance of the Trinitarian doctrine you oppose makes it difficult to decide where to begin to answer that nonsensical question. Apparently, you need reminding that the Son is also a Person as are the Father and The Holy Spirit. So, yes Jesus–as God–created all Creation. Sorry, I can’t give you a transcript of the conversation.
“Please, don’t tie me in with Skiba”
Your error may not be a carbon copy of his but it leads you to the same place: Trinity denial.
“I am as far from His Hebrew theology as you are from Apostolic Truth….”
HA-ha-ha-ha! As if you knew any “Apostolic Truth” !! That’s a good one! Have I told you that you’re a funny guy, jaz? I think I may have, in another thread, once.
You are a mocker of the brethren Chuckles.. And I have told you before, you best be careful of your accusations. you are not beyond the Royal court.
The pharisees thought they had it all together.
I see that same spirit in you. High and lifted up, full of condemnation and Puffed within the framework of your theological tradition.
well your puny little theological box will be burned up one day!
Welcome to the cult of acedemia with chuckles as its high priest. We will be checking your doctoral certificates at the door.
“Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.”
This whole site is nothing but trying to justify ourselves before men. I include myself in this, but I am done. It is fruitless.
Rob Skiva has also disturbed me in the past with his less than stellar teachings that you can pretty much pick up from others who teach similarly. I don’t care for his style of teaching, but that’s not the point here.
The point is this – if you cannot theologically break down and understand what the Godhead is or refuse to accept it, then be honest about it. You don’t publish a statement of faith and state on the one hand that you believe in the trinity, but your teachings say otherwise. And by the way, this has become more and more a deceptive practice among many false teachers. They don’t tell you a lot in their statements of faith, that is, if they bother to publish one.
And if you cannot exegete scripture and understand what the seven spirits of God are, essentially hold to the “manifestation” not personhood of the Holy Spirit which the Hebrew Roots Movement promulgates and actually believe that the Holy Spirit is the father of Jesus, which is pure heresy, I am saddened to agree with you Cris that he is a false teacher and those who follow him are deceived by his twisting of the scriptures.
My only prayer is that those who listen to him will actually heed sound biblical teachings, read this article and that the Holy Spirit illuminate them.
YES Jenny you get it! Rob is knowingly misleading because I went over this issue with him a month ago.
I agree that the points of Theological error Skiba prescribes to is not being made open, and I agree that his presenations are rehashes of material in abundance on youtube, but it seems a little like CP is jealous of the share of the “Christian Tabloid” industry that Rob is hedging in on.
Not for nothing here but without people like Cris standing up and calling a spade a spade here Skiba would just go along spreading his modern relavatism applied to Biblical understandings armed with nothing more than his concordance. The first time I heard Skiba I knew he was just parroting information, research and theories well established by Christian authors. The guy splashes on the YT scene standing on the shoulders of people who did all the work and he takes all the credit offering a citation to a website in lieu of proper credit, like his entire paycheck. He does no real actual research himself, he scans the web or reads the end products and flat out steals from people who dig in and do real research like David Flynn RIP, Cris and Tom Horn, Michael Heiser, and worst of all Peter Goodgame. After reading Peter Goodgame’s The Second Coming of Antichrist you will understand that Skiba doesn’t have an original thought in his head. I was so offended for Goodgame I sent him an email referencing Skiba bastardizing his work. It’s hilarious, telling, and worst of all a great concern that someone who titles one of their books with Gnostic terminology like “Archon”, because anti-christians like David Icke and Jay Weidner are creating buzz surrounding this term, is now “challenging” Orthodoxy from a standpoint of ignorance.
I doubt that Jealousy is the motive, rather offense at a guy whose gotten a little too big for his britches who now dares to mislead people into heretical fallacies. I’m glad Cris doesn’t take eternity so lightly.
I agree with a previous poster, Jaz. I do not see how Rob’s words are heresy. I hate to see you slandering him with multple posts on your website. How much longer is this going to continue?
Megan you obviously don’t know what “slander” means. I suggest you look it up. I have not written one false word. I have documented that Rob Skiba denies the personhood of the Holy Spirit. In so doing, that is a denial of Trinity – one God in three PERSONS. Skiba only has two. That is a heresy by all biblical theological standards. However, you Megan have accused me of slander without providing one shred of evidence. That implies you are the one guilty of slander and are violating the ninth commandment. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Man, this is a prickly one…
Up until I read that last paragraph in that FB comment I was feeling at least a little sympathetic towards Skiba, tho not necessarily agreeing with his conclusions, yet perhaps feeling like maybe he does have a few valid points, and that his concept of the Holy Spirit might be off, but at least, hopefully, more of a semantic disparity than anything else… I dunno, I guess I was trying to give the dude the benefit of the doubt, since I know I’ve held plenty of erroneously views over the years that had to be corrected….
But then yeah, that last paragraph of his is pretty dang hard to get past, since he himself is indeed A) accusing everyone who DOES regard the Spirit as a person of “absolute heresy”, and B) makes this dubious statement about the personhood of the Father vs. the Spirit conceiving Jesus in the womb…(?)
Very troubling for sure, as if God the Father is to be primarily understood as “the Father” because of the impregnation of Mary, and not His overall eternal nature…. Very akin to Mormon/JW thinking indeed….
And yes, for him to make those latter statements after first coming out like “it is irrelevant whether we call the Spirit a person”, and then later accuse Spirit-personhood as absolute heresy, that’s talking out of both sides of one’s mouth.
I am very hesitant to get involved in discussions when the “H-word” starts getting thrown around, cuz so often it only smears the name of Jesus, but the sad reality is that there ARE false teachers out there, who really will do everything they can to veil their true beliefs in order to be accepted by the broader Christian audience…
I myself had to wrestle with and confront this when I was alerted to the real but masked beliefs/teachings of Leonard Sweet, after reading his book “Quantum Spirituality”. Are you very familiar with him Chris? The guy totally presents himself as basically a traditional evangelical, yet he was one of the main progenitors of the Energent church, he quotes guys like David Spangler and other New Agers, advocates “navigating the 4th dimension” i.e. psychic experiences from eastern religions/ occult origins, etc., etc.! You read this book from 20 years ago and it’s. all there, just shocking, yet today he totally uses language and double meanings to do exactly what you describe in your post here. He is a master at it actually… Anyways, I guess the point is that you are absolutely right, we cannot just take people at face value because they use certain words/terms, what really counts is the meanings and definitions we put into them!
Exactly…. and you must realize when that comment was written this was a small scale conversation and I was trying to persuade him in a friendly way. The escalation and accusations of heresy were Rob’s. It’s a matter of record that Rob’s views are identical to Mormons and JWS… it’s not slander to point out a fact.
I agree:
Yes after that language I knew I could not longer assume he was a brother who was simply confused but rather a false teacher of the cultic variety. He has proven that out.
I am not familiar with Leonard Sweet. Thanks for the comments!
I s there a difference in saying (one God in three persons and three persons in one God) The mind baffles.
Why can’t things remain SIMPLE!
This is how the Godhead is identified and defined in the NT
1.God the Father,
2.Jesus the Son of God,
3.The Spirit of God
That is the divine status of the Godhead it constitutes of the Father, the Son and the HolySpirit.
Nowhere in the NT will you find the words (God the Son or God the HolySpirit).
why is it that theology reverses these words placing them back to front against the intent of the infallible Word of God?
That mode of expressing the Godhead is catholic in origin.
Godhead = Deity, divine nature Acts17:29 Rom1:20 Col2:9 It should not have to go any further than that!
and I do not believe that The Apostles of the Lord expanded beyond that simple equation.
“Why can’t things remain SIMPLE!”
Because we are a bunch of academics in search of a mystery. Who needs humble submission to the spirit of truth when we have Google?
I’m really sick of this kind of argument from people. The Holy Spirit is not an excuse for intellectual laziness. Theology matters! I challenge you to read this.
You mischaracterize my position. Something you do a lot by the way. I never said theology is not important. It is The litmus test for all things. However, if you consider prayer to be a “lazy” occupation, then you are not doing it right.
Also, there can be grace found in not knowing, in struggling, in seeking. These endevors bring about humility, patience, long suffering… All things pleasing and Not grieving to The Holy Spirit.
Why would anyone wish to taint grace by slapping some heritic label on them? Admittedly, I have a lot to learn regarding the scriptures. God is more capable to utilize me as His servant if I am pliable to His requests rather than set in my ways.
hopeful_watcher said:
“Why would anyone wish to taint grace by slapping some heritic [sic] label on them?”
Well then sure, why not just slap “grace” all over every idea, every view, every lie of the devil that oozes out of anyone’s mouth?
That is exactly what the Pope is doing! Don’t you see it?
Sigh.
Grace is not for me to define, nor you, nor the Pope. It is for God and God alone. He may dispense it how He wishes.
Even thoughts and ideas that are heretical and others that are down right evil. God may use grace through our darkest hours. You can bilittle every heritic [sic… Yeah we get it. You are smarter] you see, it won’t have any impact on God’s grace working in their lives.
Hate to break it to you chuckles, you ain’t no ones savior. Love your neighbor. Speak the truth in boldness. Defend the scriptures. Seek the Lord in sincerity and prayer. Leave the heart changing to Jesus.
hopeful_watcher said (with jaz cheering him on, no doubt):
“Grace is not for me to define, nor you, nor the Pope. It is for God and God alone. He may dispense it how He wishes.”
You’re confusing the definition of Grace (God’s unmerited favor) with its application. But hey, let’s not get all fussy about cogency at this late stage. Actually, it is truth—TRUTH–that you are trying to “define” according to your own flawed “understanding”. Trouble is, you’re so far from the Truth you can’t recognize even His shadow.
“Hate to break it to you chuckles, you ain’t no ones savior.”
Where did I say I was ? I didn’t, but your efforts to deflect valid criticism have blinded you to even the most basic reading comprehension it seems. You are only making your own muddled thinking–not to mention your tendency to read whatever you want into any statement–more obvious with every obtuse and irrelevant post you make.
But of course, how dare I say so!! No, you and jaz are above criticism of any kind, being so “humble” and all. So, I’ll just leave you both to your self-justifying delusions.
Go ahead and keep posting, please. People need to see how rank-and-file heretics think. Like I said; very illustrative.
You value the pursuit of wisdom over humility.
Any honest reading of the bible shows your value system is inverted.
I won’t debate you chuckles. You are to be pitied.
Proverbs 11:2
When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV) 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Some believe the living are those who cannot die in the land of the living, unless they sin. The dead are those who’s glory and honor in God has been forgotten, thus the memory of them is forgotten (like fallen Adam & Eve cast out of the garden of God, no longer to see God face to face). God dwells in eternity and none have see Him, but the Son, He hath declared Him. Proverbs 6:6-9 (KJV) 6 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:7 Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, 8 Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest. 9 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? Psalm 46:10 (KJV) 10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth. When the time is appointed we will know Him for we will see Him as He IS and as we are known. Until then, knowledge is increasing until The Day of The Lord. Suffer the little children – 1 Corinthians 13:9-12 (KJV) 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Cris Putman you say theology matters.
It matters more to some than others. What I consider Theology by definition is The understanding of God and His truth to someone else it is the study of religion or a particular book of Faith. There is nothing wrong with that.
What I am not in agreement with, is when somebody becomes conceited by their particular bran of theology
You Mr putman are of the dispensational bran, The pope his bran is Romanism, Then you have the Reformed, the Armenian, the Lutheran, the Messianic Hebrew Root,Then you also have the SDA’s, the Preterist and the list goes on and on.
Now; Every body reckons that their bran is the correct one, do they not?
And some of these adherents/scholars/doctors ect not only get very haughty and puffed up in their belief systems and some like ‘Chuckles’ mocks and name calls those who do not agree with their particular bran. some have even killed in the name of theology. You know that to be true!
Just to tell you a little about myself, I have studied theology many many years ago (westminster reformed) did hermeneutics, reformation history, biblical counselling.. I was always the black sheep of the class because I would not play the conformity game. ‘I know how the system works’ and it is the same system applied to all.
The doctrine changes but the method remains.
I say to you; There is not any bran out there that can claim ‘the fulness of truth’.
That ingrained concept of ‘I have all the truth’ is a deception rooted in Satanic pride and it is easily identified by the persecution that spews from the mouth of the Dragon wether it be verbal or physical.
A doctorate in theology is not above the infallible Word of God. A doctorate is gained by a method of biblical interpretation. Most, Not all who subject themselves to this form of study just accept everything taught them as truth. well; I did not, I prayed and and asked if what I was being taught was the Truth or not. and some of it was and some not.
So; when I say repent of theology. what I am addressing is the concepts attained by that formula of interpretation. which is considered truth and elevates one above all others in their thinking that they have got it all.
There is a difference between theological concepts and divine revelation It is best to have a little knowledge than a gallery of what is called truth. For that Gallery is bound to have errors in it.
some time back I posted a site that show clearly that catholics could not agree among themselves about the Trinity
But it went into moderation and never appeared.. May be you could find it and post it
Thanking you.
jaz said:
“some time back I posted a site that show clearly that catholics could not agree among themselves about the Trinity”
Well then, that would ceratinly lend support to my statement that Trinitarianism did not originate with Catholicism. (Btw, the same disagreement is becoming more widespread in so-called “Protestantism” these days, sad to say.)
But all that is completely beside the point, jaz. The issue isn’t “What do _________ (fill in the blank) believe about the Trinity?” It is “What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?” That is the real issue.
That is what you need to get straight.
jaz says:
“What I am not in agreement with, is when somebody becomes conceited by their particular bran of theology”
Indeed. Even more disagreeable is when somebody becomes conceited by their own ignorance. Especially when said ignorance is worn as a badge of “humility”.
“Now; Every body reckons that their bran is the correct one, do they not?”
Well it’s evident that you certainly do. You seem to be of the “nobody can know for sure because I say so” theological camp. You’re not without company; that idea is becoming more popular worldwide with each passing day. The old name for it was “agnosticism”. But don’t you see how arrogant and prideful it is to insist that–just because you don’t understand something–nobody else could possibly understand it either?
“some like ‘Chuckles’ mocks and name calls those who do not agree with their particular bran.”
It’s not “name-calling” to point out that a heretic is… well, a heretic. Just a statement of fact. I appeal to the Bible as my authority. As for “mocking” you… ok, ya got me, I’ll plead “guilty”. Sorry, about that, jaz. I try to stop, but you make it so hard to resist!
“some have even killed in the name of theology. You know that to be true!”
Yes! I do! And you know who so often are the targets of such genuine persecution? Believers who insist on biblical doctrine! Not those who insist on Catholic doctrine, or “Pharisee” doctrine, or even your “We can’t know for sure” doctrine; but biblical doctrine. The Albigenses and Waldenses were insistent on sound biblical doctrine, and so refused to join with Roman Catholicism. Rome burned many of them at the stake for their–what you call “pride”.
“I say to you; There is not any bran out there that can claim ‘the fulness of truth’.”
Nobody here has claimed to have “the fulness of truth”, just to understand a portion of it. Yet you continue to level that false charge.
“That ingrained concept of ‘I have all the truth’ is a deception rooted in Satanic pride”
Actually, the concept of “nobody can know the truth” is just as satanic, and much more popular in Western thinking. Otoh, I for one have never claimed to “have all the truth”. I have sought to draw attention to the fact that what you claim to be truth (i.e. that the Holy Spirit is not a person) is, in fact, a lie. Forgive me for this wrong!
“A doctorate in theology is not above the infallible Word of God.”
Agreed. So, why won’t you believe “the infallible Word of God” where that Word tells us about the Person of the Holy Spirit?
“There is a difference between theological concepts and divine revelation”
‘K. And what is the God-given channel of such revelation? The Bible! How do we know what the Bible says? Through study!
Jaz, you keep retreating into the same pattern of non-logic: “Nobody can be sure what the Bible actually says by academic study, therefore one person’s ‘theology’ is no better that the next guy’s ‘theology'”. That non-logic is convenient as a cop-out, but false. God wants us to worship Him with our minds as well as the rest of our being, and so He gave us His written Word by which we may know Him. Yes, the Holy Spirit’s guidance is essential (and a false spirit will lead you astray), but academic study is something The Spirit guides and blesses. He does not bless sloth or rationalization, including the brand of post-modern “my theology’s as good as yours” sophistry under which you seek shelter. However, you seem committed to remain in that deception. I’ve done my best to rattle your cage, but now it’s up to the Holy Spirit (the Person). So, I’ll leave you alone.
I don’t brand ignorance as humility. A humble person can be ignorant. So can a pride filled one. I may in fact be ignorant on this matter. I concede you may be correct on the theology.
I have never said the Holy Spirit was not a distinct person, but was always focused on the spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit. I find it difficult to think about a spirit being a “person”. This certainly might be my own short coming.
The more troublesome thing is not the exact truth of this disputed theology, but our attitude in relation to it. Because when I remain humble and I am ignorant, then I can redirected with ease through grace. But if you are ignorant in your pride, then you will remain there forever.
Hence, pride leads to disgrace and humility leads to wisdom.
You are right there hopeful_watcher;
When Adam received the -pride of the serpent- and God confronted him, he was ‘disgrace’ by his nakedness.
Disgrace is an absence of Grace.
The prideful heart is far away from it.
Hence, Adam was kicked out of the Garden..
The Garden was the location wherein the -water of life- flowed from Eden. “And a river went out of Eden to water the Garden” Gen2:10
Out of the garden Adam is placed on probation until such Time as Jesus
(the water of life) Rev21:6 Jn4:10 is revealed in the Fullness of Time restoring Grace.
To be honest I would like to see the Preterist thrown under the bus, and I would volunteer to be the driver.!!!!!!!
Who ever it is that is saying that theology dosent matter is of an anti Christ spirit. Rob you are already in danger of blasphemy so it stands to reason that those who follow your anti-theology need to THINK of whose spirit you represent.
Chuckles;The Doctrine of the trinity as it presently stands among protestants has its roots in Catholicism. I am sorry that you cannot see that..
What you need to do, is some research On this concept of ((God the father, God the son, God the holy Spirit) and find the source of that concept. obviously you are not hearing me.
((((((YOU WILL NOT FIND GOD DEFINED IN THOSE TERMS IN THE SCRIPTURES)))) The vocabulary of the Apostles are void of it!…. (God the father, God the son, God the holy Spirit)
Apostle Paul said, ” Be ye filled with the Holy spirit”…… He did not say Be ye filled with God The Holy spirit….., Nor did he say; Be ye filled with the Person of the Holy Spirit’
The Apostle said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus and ye shall be saved”…… He did not say, Believe on God the son and ye shall be saved,…… nor did he say, Believe on the person of the lord Jesus Jesus and ye shall be saved.
The Apostle said May the grace of God the Father be with you ……. He did not say, may the grace of the person of God the father be with you….
Apostle peter said Ye have become partakers of the Godhead (divine nature) … He did not say ye have become partakers of the trinity..;; nor did he say , ye have become partakers of God the father, God the son and God the Holy spirit….
If you do not mind Chuckles; I’ll stick with the Apostles written word instead of your theological concept….
I will define God according to the infallible written Word of God…. You are free to define God in terms foreign to scripture.
We must acknowledge that though the bible is not explicit in stating a trinity doctrine, the triune nature of the Godhead is certainly implied in scripture, no? That when relating to the Father, or relating to the Son or relating to The Holy Spirit, that in each instance you are relating to the fullness of the divinity of God.
I have issue that we use earthly language like “person” and think somehow that is sufficient in understanding and communicating the nature of the Holy Spirit. That expressions of “he” have more to do with our complete inadequacy to describe with words the indescribable than it has to do with the true nature of the Holy Spirit.
It’s like trying to paint an autumn landscape using only primary colors. You can approach it, but you will never fully get there.
Many Christians would be surprised to know that God in the bible is never described as a Trinity, but is in fact always described as a Unity that is one God Deut6:4 Mk12:29 1Cor8:6 1Tim2:5 1Jn5:7 Jn10:30
I share this brief:
The catholic ‘Eucharistic host’ carry the initials of the heathen Trinity of Gods that it symbolises -I H S- cladded with the rays of Sun. ( Isis, Horus, Seb ) this symbol is also kept within and object of worship called a ‘monstrance’ which is often carried in procession by Bishops for the adoration of the faithful. Is it Christ being worshipped or the Trinitarian Egyptian God?
Papal Rome tell us that The I H S inscribed on the host is latin (Iesus Hominum Salvator) meaning ‘Jesus the saviour of men’
so; we see a double sense being portrayed within the Eucharistic host . Is it coincidence or an invention of Mystery Babylon the Great?
Many of the past pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained by Rome as being worthy of belief within the course of Catholicism’s developed. Trinitarianism is one among many.
Among the many catholic prayers there is the Rosary wherein supplication is made using these words
‘Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners’
Catholics believe in the Trinitarian concept of (God the father, God the Son, God the Holy spirit)
By their standards then, Mary is the mother of God.. but Is Mary the ‘Mother of God’ or is she the ‘mother of Jesus’ The Son of God..
Does it really matter if we do not apply the prompt vocabulary of scripture (What God has said)
So you don’t want to be left alone, huh, jaz? Okayyyy…
jaz said:
“Chuckles;The Doctrine of the trinity as it presently stands among protestants has its roots in Catholicism. I am sorry that you cannot see that.”
What I can see vividly is that you are completely, utterly wrong about that.
“What you need to do, is some research On this concept of ((God the father, God the son, God the holy Spirit) and find the source of that concept. obviously you are not hearing me.”
I have done research on theTrinity. The research you need to read over or listen to is contained in the articles and videos which Cris has so kindly posted throughout this blog. (Those are only a few sources, of course.)
“((((((YOU WILL NOT FIND GOD DEFINED IN THOSE TERMS IN THE SCRIPTURES)))) The vocabulary of the Apostles are void of it!…. (God the father, God the son, God the holy Spirit)”
No need to shout, jaz.
I am surprised that you would employ such a simplistic and irrelevant argument. No, wait, I shouldn’t be surprised at all, you’ve used it before.. (As I have pointed out, the word “bible” is not found in Scripture either. So what?)
The fact that certain exact wording which would denote the Trinity to your satisfaction is not found in the Bible is irrelevant. The concept is there, plainly, woven all through the Scripture, and in exactly the wording God intended. The Trinity becomes particularly vivid when the Scriptures are studied in the original languages. Again, information regarding that is in the many references Cris has provided. Why do you continue to ignore those references?
Really, the issue isn’t about preferred terms. It ls about God’s nature as He reveals Himself in Scripture. The Bible presents God in three distinct Persons (not “gods”, Persons) and these are referred to as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (and with other names). The Three are One. They communicate with each other. Each Person of the Godhead exhibits traits which only a person could exhibit: love, hate, grief, anger, joy etc. We’ve been over all this already.
“Apostle Paul said, ” Be ye filled with the Holy spirit”…… He did not say Be ye filled with God The Holy spirit….., Nor did he say; Be ye filled with the Person of the Holy Spirit’”
Now that’s just silly. Paul didn’t have to use the terms you demand of him. It was already understood that the Holy Spirit is a person. Nobody uses the word “person” when speaking of a person in normal conversation. I don’t respond to your posts with “jaz, the person, says” do I? Yet you are a person. (Aren’t you?) Nobody doubts that, do they? Is The Holy Spirit any less than you?
And again, you can’t argue that you “don’t deny the deity of the Holy Spirit” and at the same time pointedly deny His person-hood. A non-person cannot be God. No Person, no God, it’s that simple. I’m sorry that you cannot see that.
“Many Christians would be surprised to know that God in the bible is never described as a Trinity, but is in fact always described as a Unity that is one God Deut6:4 Mk12:29 1Cor8:6 1Tim2:5 1Jn5:7 Jn10:30”
Many people–especially those who deny the Trinity–are not aware of the fact that in Hebrew there are different words for “one”. There is the “one” which means an absolute, singular unity. There is also the “one” which can mean a compound, or plural unity. There are also singular and plural forms of verbs in Hebrew. These facts bear directly on the verses you quoted above. Don’t take my word for it, refer to this link Cris posted in another thread to a video by Dr. Michael Heiser, a scholar of Hebrew:
http://www.logosapologia.org/?cat=3&paged=2
I hope that link works! If it doesn’t, my apologies. Try the original post. It’s back a couple weeks.
You should have no trouble finding other discussions of the biblical Trinity in Scripture by knowledgeable people on the ‘net.
“No trouble”, that is, if you really want to know the truth. I’m beginning to wonder about your intentions in that regard. Your penchant for re-posting the same refuted arguments–refuted centuries ago, btw–makes me wonder if you really want the answers. You appear to want to remain in your heresy. Does it feel that good to be a “non-conformist”? It shouldn’t. By rejecting the person-hood of the Holy Spirit (and by necessity, the rest of the Trinity), you have “conformed” yourself to the majority opinion; that of the world.
The information in your “brief” regarding the Eucharist is well known. But the fact that the biblical Trinity has been “aped” by the devil doesn’t disprove the biblical Trinity. You are aware, I hope, that the devil tends to counterfeit many legitimate Scriptural concepts in his deceits? What better way is there to put uninformed people off the real Trinity than by throwing out false versions everywhere? And of course, Satan has long tried to be “like the Most High”.
Yes, Catholics are taught that Mary is “the Mother of God”. Rome has perverted an early Church reference to Mary. In the early (pre-RC) Church, Mary was sometimes referred to as “the Mother of God” in order to help counter the heresy creeping into the Church even then that Jesus was not God. Originally, the saying was not meant to imply that God has a mother, but that the One she carried in her whom was (is) indeed God. Of course, biblically, Mary is the mother of Jesus as to His human-ness, but not as to His Deity. The Scripture is also very clear that The Son always existed as God from eternity (John 17:5). The pre-RC Church never meant to infer that God has a mother. But in her usual fashion, Rome has co-oped and twisted the saying to sell the “Queen of Heaven” idea. Again, so what?
You don’t have to teach me about the RCC, I was raised in it.
“Does it really matter if we do not apply the prompt vocabulary of scripture (What God has said)”
So now you’re all for applying “the prompt vocabulary of scripture”? Then what of the many evidences of the Holy Spirit’s person-hood in Scripture?
All this has gotten redundant, jaz. You’re still going in circles, and you haven’t made your case, because you have no case.
I agree with Chris on the Trinity…However I think Chris subscribes to the notion that the ”Nephilim” will return
soon just as his friend Tom Horn believes as well, when the context that Jesus CLEARLY IMPLIES as it was in the ‘Days of Noah’ had to do with the element of surprise while people were going about their lives, and NOT some re-emergence of the fallen ones…why doesn’t just Tom and Chris further extrapolate that and say there’s gonna be
the unique, theorized, antedeluvian ‘water canopy’ atmosphere and have all the Dinosaurs re-emerge as well
if Jesus said ‘as it was in the days of Noah’?
These Nephilim, whoever they were, have absolutely NOTHING to do with the end times whatsoever,
and the closer one studies the Book Of Enoch, the more one finds more holes in it than swiss cheese,
no wonder it’s not part of the Canon.
Rob Skiba believes this nonsense as well…Jesus wouldn’t ‘hint’ at something like the nephilim in the end times
anyway, I believe he CLEARLY would have specifically mentioned their return, rather than have people extrapolate and virtually put words in Jesus’ mouth he never said, nor meant, by taking his words out of context.
Vic- I can fully appreciate your resistance to the modern nephilim concept, and that to point to Jesus’ reference to “as in the Days of Noah” should not be heralded as a stand alone proof-text for nephilim reemerging in the Last Days…
However, I believe that the significant aspect of the end-time nephilim idea is simply the ancient lie behind it all, Satans offer to mankind that “ye shall be like God”. So to me, whether there actually is some kind of genetic alteration offered to humanity from the beast, or merely just the PROMISE of some kind of evolutionary jump, or immortality, whether via genetics, or technology, or whatever, is a secondary thing to ponder, because it is the heart of this satanic lie that is really crucial anyhow. i used to think that guy’s like Tom Horn were a little too out there myself, but over time, as you learn more and more about what they actually ARE working on today, things like the transhumanist movement, dudes like Ray Kurzweil, eyc, you realize that these yhings are not just bizarre speculations by some kooky bible prophecy writers, they are as real and present as the existence of Google itself….
Jaz – Your statements about the many instances of catholic idolatry masked by a veneer of the appearance of Christian teaching is well founded, however, this doesn’t mean that something like the concept of the Trinity was in fact invented by such subversive occult influences, but rather merely perverted by them.
stranger than fiction; all I am saying is that I much prefer to use biblical words rather than Theological ones.
I reject Skiba’s claims that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force.
The Godhead is co-equal in Unity.
Although I do find it interesting, that When “The end comes and Jesus delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father” 1Cor15:24 that He (Jesus) “The Son Himself will also be subjected to the Father” 1Cor15:28
Vic; I fully agree. A lot of what is taught about the return of the Nephilim is hyper-speculative.
On the LA Marzulli blog it was recently mentioned that during the tribulation ‘resurrected Nephilims’ sized over 35Ft would be eating humans and at the same time, ‘mile wide UFO’s’ would manifest over major cities like Jerusalem and washington worldwide with claims that they (the aliens) seeded life upon the earth.
The Gen account of the flood God tells us was a result of “the Wickedness of Men” Gen6:5 which He had created.
We are told by the hyper-speculatives that all human DNA was corrupted by these Nephilims (35Ft giants copulating with earthly women) Really!
Bibically we are told that ‘King Og’ who was an Amorite Deu3:1,8 He would probably be more indicative of the size of the Nephilim. Vs8 say that he was of the remnant (surviving trace) of the Giants. Deu3:8 By the size of Og’s bed (9cubits) My guess is that He would have been around 10Ft in height.
An then there is the fallacy of the second incursion in the days of Joshua by these fallen angels which give support for the coming reoccurrence during the tribulation.
Biblically, we are told The nephelim are counted among men (the sons of Anak) Num13:33 Now ‘Anak’ had a father named ‘Arba’ Joshua15:13′ one can readily see the lineage from which Goliath came.
I have no doubt that the Nephilim (giants) were a “race of Men” whose lineage had its roots with the fallen angels.
We cannot have it both ways. The Hyper-speculatives by their insistence of the second incursion render the judgment of God ineffective if His purpose for the flood was to destroy the Nephilim.
Actually Vic I have never advocated the view that the Nephilim are part of the End times.
Yes I thought so Chris, I never heard you mention it, I’m pretty much in agreement with Michael Heiser’s belief
that Nephilim have nothing to do with End Times as well…I do believe as wild as it sounds, that it appears Angels procreated Human Women, but still have issues how Angels could have proverbially ‘snuck out the back door’ to this dimension without God knowing it, OR having him allow this sort of thing just so he could flood the world… one would think an ‘all knowing’, all powerful creator could have very, very easily could have stopped these little B*stards in their tracks.
Relatedly, how on Earth could the Serpent also sneak out a back door and enter the Garden of Eden?
How did he get there exactly? Either one of two certainties occurred, either he snuck in there, or was allowed AKA invited in there, simple as that…these legit concerns are the challenges of believers that ask
questions, that’s all, I find way too many believers don’t ask questions and just blindly follow.
These events in the past are not our fault present day, we were born into this,
and original sin is not our fault whatsoever…Grace should be granted to most of us because it’s hard not to sin
sometimes if you know what I mean?
Nevertheless I’m a believer, and a flawed one at that.
Vic — I think it is possible that something like Genesis 6 could happen again, but I am more inclined to the notion that we are opening those doors through biotechnology.
Chris, I am puzzled by your comment saying that u have never advocated the return of the nephilim in the Last Days, yet you turn around and say u are open to the idea of there being nephilim reintroduced through some kind of bio/technological means…
When i consider the degree to which you have worked with Tom Horn, this seems like an unnecessary splitting of semantic hairs… Doesn’t “nephilim” really just boil down to the genetic corruption of humanity, regardless of what specific method it is accomplished through?
Anyways… in the end, if Rob Skiba truly knows Jesus, and is a child of God, then he’s! your brother, and you should bear with him patiently and pray that God would work to correct any errors in his understanding, amen? Maybe his association with this “poppy” guy hasn’t been a wise relationship, and God is not unaware of such mistakes that we all can make. That being said, Rob Skiba has ALSO connected with a man like Tim Bence, who from my experience is one of the most humble and mature believers I’ve ever come across, so I’d say that’s gotta speak for something genuine goin on there, on the heart level….
Maybe Cris Putman could rectify/clarify some of these outrageous claims made by these Hyper-speculatives by providing a more biblically based concept of the Nephilim.
I certainly would like more information on Num13:33 & Joshua15:13 Deut3:1-8
Was King Og a celibate; was he married? His large bed 4Cubits broad is large enough to accommodate Two persons.. There is a lot that must be taken into account that the Hyper-speculatives don’t talk about.
Yeah, there is a lot of sophistry and sensationalism out there…I’m conflicted sometimes because
one the things the Lord hates is causing ”discord” among believers, at the same time if one learns something
we are confident is a lie, are we not supposed to ”call it out” and expose the lie?
Yes, I believe we should, it’s a fine line though..IDK…may the Lord understand what we’re doing and knows
in our hearts we intend to NOT cause discord, but if it looks like sh*t, and smells like sh*t…What do we
do? Stay silent so the lie can spread even further?
As far as Chris ”calling out” Tom Horn and his Nephilim Return belief, Tom is in too far in with it and cannot
retract lest he make a Major paradigm shift and change of heart on it and admit telling all his followers he was
dead wrong on the issue, and being that Chris is his close friend I’m guessing with all due respect Chris may just
back away and not touch that issue with a ten foot pole…IDK if Chris is as far ‘deep’ in it regarding the Nephilim
issue, but Chris just may have a conflict of interest in it because he corroborates with Tom on books and projects
of a similar nature…They both have their hands full on juggling the Nephilim, Petrus Romanus, and Transhumanism, which the latter mentioned I DO agree will be subject of great concern in the not too distant future, and on that issue, Tom Horn nails it very well and does an outstanding job with it.
Mr. Putnam would you please review this lecture on the “Trinity” by Mr. David Sielaff and comment on any or all heresy in his thinking or Biblical scholarship: http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d071001.htm, I am hopeful that the written and audio lecture can be Scripturally addressed so I might discern, more clearly, the areas of contention. Also, I enjoyed meeting you and listening to your lecture at the Prophecy Conference in Colorado Springs this summer.
Thank you for your due diligence
J R Jones
Well it seems as though Rob needs to re-read John 14:15-18 where Jesus Himself refers to the Holy Spirit as “He” twice and “Him” three times. (NKJV) That would clearly imply that the Holy Spirit is a Person! As well as 2 Thessalonians 2:7 where the restraining power of the Holy Spirit on earth is referred to as a “He”! But I would think that the words of Jesus Christ Himself should be enough to clarify the issue.
It seems that Rob thinks that God needs a physical body to be a person yet he neglects that Jesus Himself said that the Father is a Spirit, (John 4:24). Well that really throws a wrench into Rob’s thought process doesn’t it? If we let Scripture clarify the concept of the Holy Trinity then Scripture clearly defines it as God as one in three “persons”.
I think another stumbling block for Rob’s thought process is that he thinks for a “person” to be a person he has to have a physical body. Yet when we die we are still the same “person” but without a body until Christ returns and gives us our resurrected glorified bodies at the Rapture. A reference to this in Scripture can be found in Revelation 6:9-11 of the “souls” of those slain for the Word of God crying out how long will God avenge their blood. Should they not be considered to be “people” because they don’t have physical bodies?
Let us Christians remain humble and allow the Word of God to clarify all things and not rely on our own understanding for things that are not clear to us. May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all!
Maranatha!
Has Rob Skiba ever apologized for the blatant lies in regards to that statement of beliefs that speaks out of both sides of his mouth? Certainly many will be on their way to hell for following such a false, lying teacher. I cannot help but remember that each of those persons that have the Bible and are making the choice to follow a man whose theology is so skewed even they can`t agree on what Rob has said. I was curious as I read Robs article on “Paul and the Hebrews 8 Conspiracy” HERE IS A BLATANT LIE BY OMISSION BY Skiba in his article ”
Yeshua said on the road to Emmaus that the books of Moses declared who He was.
The Road to Emmaus
13 And behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which was about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 And they were talking with each other about all these things which had taken place.15 While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and began traveling with them. 16 But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him. 17 And He said to them, “What are these words that you are exchanging with one another as you are walking?” And they stood still, looking sad. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, “Are You the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days?” 19 And He said to them, “What things?” And they said to Him, “The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the sentence of death, and crucified Him. 21 But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened. 22 But also some women among us amazed us. When they were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and did not find His body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said that He was alive. 24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just exactly as the women also had said; but Him they did not see.” 25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.” These men still didnt recognize that this was Jesus and yet you lead people to look to Moses`s words to identify JESUS. JESUS CAME, DIED, AROSE AND IS COMING BACK SOON. Yet you still put men under the bondage of the law. What is it you dont get? Rob knows his followers dont know the scriptures well enough to know those men only realized LATER that is was Jesus who was walking with them. I am SICKENED BY PEOPLE WHO PREACH TO THEIR ADVANTAGE. I am not well schooled in debate, but I am schooled by the Holy Spirit that Rob Skiba denies….wait…accepts, umm no denies…One day soon Rob humility will over come yopu and you will fall on your knees and declare that Jesus is Lord and I hope by then you have read the Word of God and stopped this arrogant, selfish, deceived road you are on.
Apparently, his conscience is so seared that he doesn’t even see his dishonesty.
I have noticed over the last many years more and more theologians, writers, teachers etc who were raised on the idea of the Blessed Hope, no longer believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture. I heard him a year or so ago saying he had been raised believing in the Pre-Trib, but now he had “seen the light”. I guess my point is the closer we get to the coming of the Lord it seems by the day more and more believe the Body of Christ must suffer wrath in the Tribulation. That ties in with the conversation of a few days ago where we discussed the ordinances that were nailed to Cross. The wrath was put on Christ, not the Body of Believers. And before someone says anything about tribulation, there is a difference between trials, tribulation and perilous times, and the set time period of the Tribulation. God Bless, James
Howdy! I just wish to offer you a huge thumbs up for the excellent information you’ve got right here on this post. I’ll be returning to your website for more soon.
Cris, its all about money…he changes with the wind. Plainly stated Rob If Skiba would would humble him self under the mighty hand of God and get right with him, there would be no issues here. Making his movie is so important that he even slammed his bother in Christ, not understanding the “MESSAGE” that the movie was about(the movie was a success( btw) Even Rob`s own followers questioned him. Sadly Rob back tracked as usual. Its all about making usrey of Christ Jesus, this is his main objective for he goes where eve the winds of the almighty dollar take him. If Rob has to blasphemy the God of Abaham, I suppose its worth it in this wold to a guy so disingenuous as Rob…”What doth it profit a man if he gains this wold and looses his soul…” (paraphrased)
God Bless Cris
btw, loved you being on the Jim Bake show!! looking fowaed to the books.
Greetings all, and then there is Paul, who in all his letters in the salutation, not once mentions the Holy Spirit.
what do you know that Paul didn’t?
Romans 1:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ
Big D, Paul does mention the Spirit in many many other places, for example: “The grace of the (1)Lord Jesus Christ and the love of (2) God and the fellowship of the (3)Holy Spirit be with you all.”(2 Co 13:14)
So what is your point?
Simple. In all Paul’s letters over different times to different churches he failed to include the third “personage” in ANY of his salutations – not one. So are you saying because he got 2 out of 3 that’s good enough with respect properly shown for God Almighty? It would be good enough if just Tom Horn’s name appeared on your books because you are mentioned in the book? Paul either: 1) Doesn’t know about the trinity doctrine; 2) doesn’t care, or 3) Knows the trinity doctrine is nonsense and deserves no mention.
Pick one.
Paul, sure liked Him. Enough to make it crystal clear you aren’t a member of the Body of Christ without Him. http://www.biblebelievers.net/BibleStudies/kjcholyspirit.htm
格安販売
I see the apostle John shares Paul’s problem:
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
What John did NOT say: “…that denieth the Father and the Son and the HOLY SPIRIT.”
you know guys ive been reading most of the comments about the exposition of the diferent views towards the trinity but im failing to see one thing the actual practice of our belives if you guys beliveve in the same GOD that i belive the trinity the Father The son and the Holy Spirit why not present our cause to The King and lets unite in prayer not in conted but for thruth every single person and bring forth direct revelation onto one another instead of blasting one another and taking things onto our own hands bc i know he can reveal to any of us and bring clear revelation of the truth to all, tht way it can be a divine intervention bc we cannot change mans belives only God in all sence of trinity can change manand bring direct revelation that would be what my teacher would say
Cris,
Thanks for taking the time, effort, patience, and backlash to deal with Rob Skiba. I find it quite humorous that so many people, including Rob himself, were begging you to stop wiping the floor with him. I think it is the rise of the anti-bully culture that has risen in the school systems that has permeated a lot of the backlash. Reading through Rob’s posts it was obvious to me that the initial escalation was his, I think your comments about “Red Herring’s and Sour Grapes” over on the FB posts were spot on. That’s exactly how I read them and the people supporting him in spite of his preaching a seperate doctrine conveniently miss that he calls anyone who believes in the Trinity a heretic. Also he accuses you of dancing when thats what he is doing, claiming belief in the Trinity yet denying it with doublespeak and then puts out a statement of faith. Unfortunately with the advent of internet platforms people are exposed more and more to heresies and different gospels and these ideas, especially to new Christians, can run together and confuse them.
I’m sure it isn’t easy for someone who took the time and dedication to follow through and get credentials in these areas and then have to deal with someone who treats such issues so carelessly. Kudos to you for taking the time to address him.
Pardon me, i am fairly knew to the deeper things of the bible.
Could someone direct me to the Biblical passage using the word “trinity” as a description of the Godhead.
I always visualized a circle due the relationship of the triune God.
And how is the Holy Spirit considered a “person” if it is not human?
Is it possible that the Godhead will never be fully understood? This all seems to make salvation sound like pretty shaky semantics.
Considering the baptists i know specifically say they do not belive in speaking in tongues….most churches don’t. So if the apostle Paul teaches it as a sign of the Holy Spirit, aren’t these baptists/methodists/presbyterians etc. denying the maifestation of the Spirit yet agreeing to the “trinity” by way of eschatology?
The term cult could apply for most christian groups by the logic stated above.
Can someone explain how this is possible?
Valerie, the term “person” is not used in the sense of a human person. It is term referring the fact that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are personal. They are one in the Godhead but distinct. Iow, the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the HS, the HS is not the Father, etc. though all have the same divine essence and are God. If you are new to the faith, it might be helpful to look up some materials on the Trinity. While it is true we cannot totally grasp it, we can apprehend it. Go to the CARM website and look up Trinity. It has a lot of helpful info. To deny the Trinity is heresy because to have the wrong nature of God means one has the wrong/false Jesus and cannot have salvation through such a Jesus. Ron S. denies the personhood of the Holy Spirit and calls the Spirit “it” which is against how the Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit. Please do some study on this. The Bible supports the Trinity by showing all 3 Persons of the Godhead as equal and fully God but they are not each other.
Thank you Marcia — excellent answer!
Also, RC Sproul was really helpful in explaining the “person” term for me. In the Greek tragedies, the actors often played more than one character and they used different masks, with a handle, to switch roles – (like those classic theater masks). The word for the masks was “persona” and that’s the origin of the word “person.” This is not to imply modalism but it shows the word person is not necessarily implying a human being.
See about 3 minutes into this lecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkil_976Byo
Valerie,
Lots of misunderstandings are apparent in your questions, perhaps start by studying this post and, if you have time, watch the video lecture as well: http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=5176
Chris, it’s so encouraging to see someone take the Trinity seriously, and stand up and defend it. The Trinity is seriously under attack by many these days. It is either minimized as not being that important, dismissed, or actually denied by some of the false teachers out there who are busily recruiting.
Thanks Marcia! I publicly debated Russ Houck the pseudo-scholar responsible for leading Skiba and many others to error. It’s online here.
Its rather silly to object because the word “trinity” is not in the Bible; lots of theological terms are not in the Bible. Its poor reasoning. If you want the Biblical basis then study this here.
Grieved…
Cris Putnam have you personally called Rob Skiba? All I can think of is this is not what Christ would do! When Peter betrayed him, he could have run after him and had words. When people mocked Him, he could have said” well you’ll get yours”. When people said stone her.. He in turn said .. He that is without sin among you, let him cast a stone at her.
Who are you people, that are not just stating the words of wanting to drive a bus over someone, but actually doing it with these vial words posted as an example for the Internet world to see as an example. So called “examples” trashing someone and pretty much shutting the door to them. Come on people, your missing your moment.
He came to earth to show us how to live in a relationship with the Father. He showed us what to do in moments of disagreement, in moments of anger.
I do not have phd’s behind my name, but I know how Cris and others on here are speaking of Rob is not right.
I’m praying for all of you and specifically Cris and Rob. Cris I believe in your heart, that you know Rob Skiba seeks him and knows him and I would say the reverse to Rob Skiba of you.
My prayer is that God become famous in this mess of an example of how we should portray Him and that He turn this relationship of two God seeking Christians. That He turn a mess into something amazing. That he turn this relationship and discussion around so profoundly that it is the New twitter rage. That people are in awe of Such a Pig stye mess of two Godly men and make it more profound and powerful for His glory than it was before. In Jesus name In Jesus name. I’m praying that you all be struck with Gods eyes to see each other as He sees us. That He ring His voice in your ears to hear people the way He hears us. I’m praying for Truth and Light to be revealed in His word to each of us. Satan you know Gods plans to use these men and I’m here to tell you… YOU DIDN’T WIN!! God is turning this into something amazing !! In Jesus Name and by the power of His Blood Pour on Huge doses of You JesuS. Cancel and break any strongholds in Jesus name. Thank Jesus thank you !
KD, I think Chris has contacted Ron Skiba but he not obligated to contact someone who is publicly teaching falsely. Did you see the box above showing Skiba’s statement on the Trinity? He clearly denies the personhood of the Trinity and even says it does not matter. This means he is not a believer because you have the wrong God if you deny the Trinitarian nature of God. Christians do not have to contact false teachers before denouncing them. If it is a Christian, that is different, but Skiba’s statements show him not to be a believer since he is following another god.
Marcia, I agree with what you said to KD. But for the record, I started out very gently trying to correct Rob and I did not expose him publicly until he dug in his heals and called the orthodox trinitarian formula “the real heresy.”
Rob has accused all of us orthodox Trinity believers of being heretics, so his followers’ “why are you picking on poor Rob” remarks are more than a little silly.
Chris, thanks for letting me know this. This makes it even more clear that Skiba is actively rejecting and denouncing the Trinity. And if he is calling Trinitarians the “real heretics,” well then he is surely swimming gin the soup of heresy, apparently willingly and gladly. The sad thing is that he taking other into this soup with him.
Yhvh is not creator.he is tetragramaton.god of false zionjews.and masons.I am,is what our god told moses to tell the ysrealites.not the same 4letters satanist use in ritual,sort ppl,ur all revived.talking about trinity when you don’t even got the truth to start with.again I’m sorry.please prove me wrong,you will then find truth.
The name Yahweh is used 397 times in Exodus. If you don’t believe the Hebrew Bible where it uses the name Yahweh, then why do you trust the “I am” account in Exodus?
For example: “And God (elohim) said to Moses, “I am that I am.” And he said, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘I am sent me to you.’ ” And God (elohim) said again to Moses, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my remembrance from generation to generation.’(Ex 3:14–15)
Also this text predates zionism and masonry so your claim is not even possible.
I believe in one eternal God whose name is YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4). He is the Father of the only begotten Son, Yeshua (a.k.a. Jesus – John 3:16) , and He has sent His Holy Spirit to empower, comfort and encourage us in our walk with Him. I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one (Genesis 1:1-4; Isaiah 11:1-5; John 1:1-14; 10:30; 17:11; 1 John 5:7), thus, commonly referred to as the Trinity.
WHAT IS WRONG WIRH THIS STATEMENT?!?
Nothing.
Rob Skiba has said nothing to contradict scripture.
I see more jealousy than not in the many faulty reprimands
Honestly, people need to quit trying to out do the others theology. This is why, for the most part, that I hate mans theology. Terminology is what is being argued here. God is the Father, He has a Son named Jesus Christ which is God in the flesh, and the Holy Spirit (God’s Spirit). See all three aspects are GOD! Quit arguing over terminology such as Trinity vs. Godhead! Sheesh, shameful is what it is.
The nature of God is the most important part of the faith. As Jesus said, “Who do you say I am?” Jesus is not God the Father. He spoke to and of his Father, and said his Father sent him. It is ludicrous to claim that Jesus and his Father are the same being. And the attributes of God are clearly given in Scripture to the Holy Spirit as well as the evidence that the Holy Spirit is personal, not a force or “part” of God (God’s spirit). This is not a dispute over terminology but over the nature of God, an essential of the faith. And if one has the nature of God wrong, one cannot have the true Savior.
You guys are all confusing to me. I believe that the father, the son and the holy spirit are all one and the same just as the inerrant word of God says. My take as simple as it may be is that to be a person in any way associated with that of the definition of a real person is to be of the flesh. Jesus is God in the flesh, says so in the Bible. God is the father of creation and is also recognized by Jesus as his father (calls him father by name on the cross), says so in the bible. For me the holy spirit is exactly that……the holy spirit…….that part of God of which you receive into your own body that cleanses and changes you into a follower of Christ upon acceptance of him as your Lord and Savior. Nothing complicated about it except for all the mumbo jumbo talk about personhood and if the holy spirit is an actual person or not. Jesus (God in the flesh) walked this earth in human form and that fact is clearly made in the Bible. So to sum it up, JESUS WAS A REAL PERSON IN EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD with a “holy” spirit within. I can’t figure out what all the confusion about this is for the life of me?????????????????????????????????????
Understandably, it is a year later…although the relevance of what I am about to say couldn’t have been clear back in 2014. Now, it speaks volumes interestingly enough based on this thread and the “wording” used.
I came across this thread through FB and a post that I read led me here. Now, I will be the first to say I don’t have much figured out but I have learned that when that still small voice whispers (yells) at me to say/do something, I have learned to listen and obey; makes things much easier in the end anyway! Daniel of all the threads/comments I have read up to this point, yours was the first that I read when I felt led to say something. Usually, I skim comments…read what people have to say/opine or feel and keep going but this time, I realized something as I was reading your response directly. It is all in the wording!
The way everyone is speaking of the Holy Spirit…determining personhood DIRECTLY correlates to how people today speak of a baby and the determination of its personhood in the abortion debate. The “wording” is exactly the same argument you hear today for the pro-life/choice debacle. Is the baby indeed an actual person or not? Is the Holy Spirit an actual person or not?
I think one thing I have learned from my experience thus far as a child of God is that we, as humans and as a society have twisted and changed the English language so much that words today do not have the same meaning as they did when Jesus walked this land. I wonder behind the motivation of the one who deals in confusion and sin…if he indeed knew the mess we would be in with our ever changing and confusing English language and maybe, just maybe if that was some of his underlying reasoning for the Tower of Babel when God decided to split and divide peoples/languages.
It amazes me sometimes that those that profess to love God and follow Christ and His ultimate example can be as confused as to what that truly means in their daily walk. I wonder if sometimes this most unreliable English language of ours really confuses and confounds rather than complement our message?
It’s interesting that as believers and followers of Christ, we are led to lift up and reach out to those “lost” but so easily are able to let down our own family of believers…even if misguided. I think sometimes we miss the point and are busy winning souls for God and we forget to prop each other up with strengthening arms of love, even when we disagree. I believe in reproving one another but sometimes I wonder if we are so busy “telling” each other what is right, we forget to “show” that to one another!
I think being the salt and light has so profound a meaning not only for the rest of the “lost” but those who are found and may be needing the affirmation of love we are to share as the salt of the world!
I pray that I have conviction and discernment when the time comes to display both!
Amen
All that a logical-minded seeker-of-truth need do is look at the thousands of people in various cults throughout history to rationally conclude that having huge numbers of followers that follow a certain belief for centuries has no bearing on whether or not the doctrine they are following is the truth.
BAM! This just blew the entire basis of this whole argument to pieces.
The assertion that the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity (being three persons in one) is absolute truth is based on the very same false logic that believers of cults accept: that because so many people have believed something for such a long time, it MUST be truth. And in case you forgot, God is not impressed with the wisdom of man.
FACT: Nowhere in the bible does it say that the three parts of the Godhead are three persons.
• It cannot ever be proven with Scripture that the Holy Spirit is a person.
• Therefore, this belief cannot be accepted as absolute truth.
• Therefore, there remains the possibility of another truth.
END. OF. ARGUMENT.
And what Rob Skiba is saying — to those who have ears to hear — is that there IS scripture that can back-up the belief that the Holy Spirit is NOT a person. ***NOTE: He did NOT say “not a part of the Godhead.”***
Aaron is correct, this whole debate is indeed over terminology, and you all sound very foolish, especially accusing Rob of being “cultic” and others judging that he’s not even saved. Shameful is right. Chris and Company, you are acting in the spirit of the Pharisees —looking so intently at the letter of the law that you cannot see the Spirit of the law. Also like the Pharisees, the very One you are arguing over is the One who can reveal the truth of the matter – if only you were willing.
The false accusation that Rob denies the Trinity and the Holy Spirit can be easily debunked by reading Rob’s statements posted in the article above. It’s THAT simple. You are so certain that he is contradicting his own teachings, but you are seriously blinded by your own bias. Sorry, Chris, but clearly you are the one guilty of slander, here. YOU are the one who has caused a pileup on the freeway. Furthermore, when you make the claims that Rob is “knowingly misleading” and being “disingenuous” and “intentionally deceptive,” you are elevating yourself to a position of judging his heart; but the bible is clear that only God can judge the heart:
“I, the Lord, search the heart” (Jeremiah 17:10); For the Word of God… is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)
Many of you misconstrue Rob’s words when you claim that he said the Trinity is absolute heresy, when in fact he said “the majority-view Trinity doctrine (three persons in one) is heresy” [first reply, last paragraph]. Huge difference, which I address later.
Matt, using the fact that the bible refers to the Holy Spirit of God as a “He” to prove He is a “person” is faulty reasoning. If that were logical then my dog Fido would also be considered a person. “He” and “Him” constitutes maleness, not personhood.
BOTTOM LINE: there is no hardcore (and by hardcore I mean chapter and verse) biblical evidence to support the belief that the Holy Spirit is a “person.” If there were, you would have not only supplied chapter and verse long ago, you would also have been able to address Rob’s points [in his first reply, last paragraph, and all points in his second reply] — especially his last one:
• If the Holy Spirit is a person, and Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary (Matthew 1:18), then it follows logically that the Holy Spirit would be attributed with the title, Father of Jesus. But we all know that the Holy Spirit is not the father of Jesus — Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16), thus supporting the belief that the Holy Spirit is NOT A PERSON. (Brilliant observation on Rob Skiba’s part, imo.)
Also, you would also be able to answer the excellent questions posed by Big D:
• “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denieth the Father and the Son.” ~ 1 John 2:22. If the Holy Spirit is a person of the Godhead like Jesus the Son and God the Father are, why did the apostle John leave His name out when acknowledging the Godhead?
• “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” ~ Romans 1:7. If the Holy Spirit is a person of the Godhead like Jesus the Son and God the Father, why did Paul leave out His name in every one of his salutations in his letters, but acknowledged God and Jesus?
YOU CANNOT DENY THIS — there is a flaw in the doctrine that upholds the Holy Spirit as a “person” of the Godhead — YES, EVEN despite the fact that for centuries, hundreds of scholars with credentials have held to that belief! (Martin Luther and Christopher Columbus come to mind; it might be beneficial to think about their lives for a moment). Clearly many of you are having a hard time admitting to yourselves that one of your long-held beliefs, held by so many that we esteem, could be wrong. When confronted with viable, logical, opposing views, we need to be willing to shift our belief system to better line up with what the Word of God teaches. It’s called having a teachable spirit — and requires humility, I might add. Once you humble yourselves and allow for the possibility that you were wrong in your beliefs, then the veil can be removed, and then you will be as convinced as I am that — as blasphemous as this may sound — the orthodox, majority-view doctrine of the Trinity (three persons in one) is indeed “the true heresy.” But we cannot see the truth until we are willing to let go of the lie.
The logical refutations brought up by Rob offer plenty of reasons to believe the Holy Spirit is NOT a person. The original Hebrew name for the Holy Spirit is “Ruach Ha-Kodesh” or “Ruach Elohim,” the Holy Spirit of God. “The RUACH of God moved upon the face of the waters” (Genesis 1:2). Ruach is translated as the breath, spirit or wind of God. Not a person, but a force — just as Rob affirmed. This is not a new doctrine, just a new understanding to some.
YOU ALL NEED TO GET THIS:
When Rob stated that this argument is pointless and lame [second reply, third-to-last paragraph], he was not preaching modern relativism as some of you ignorantly claimed. He understands that regardless if you believe the Holy Spirit is a person or not a person (but rather breath, wind or spirit), this differentiation does not alter the characteristics NOR DIMINISHES THE IMPORTANCE//EQUALITY of the third part of the Deity of God, the Holy Spirit, and we are in fact worshipping the same triune God — even if some of you refuse to believe that. The whole argument is LAME because it’s causing division and confusion where none ought to be!
Chris, in all sincerity of heart, not in condemnation, I implore you to please stop defending yourself and stop attacking your brother in Christ, as you are bringing shame upon yourself as well as the Body. Do you not know that defensiveness is a root of pride? The few on this thread who have reached out in love to offer correction — not even in regards to your views but to your behavior — were met with immature and un-Christlike responses from you (particularly KD and Megan). The further you take this debate, the harder your fall will be because the measure that you use will be measured back to you. God has given you much influence with your pen; you would be wise to humble yourself and ask God to remove the plank from your eye. Pride is blinding your vision and causing you to stumble.
I close with a heart-felt suggestion that you and all of your Christian supporters on this thread can gain invaluable wisdom by reading (in addition to your bible) John Bevere’s “The Bait of Satan.”
By the way, it was only until I came upon this article today that I have switched from my lifelong “majority view” of the Trinity. I feel enlightened by the evidence, and encouraged to think for myself — and for that, I give God glory.
Laura,
You are just wrong. The doctrine of the trinity is very clearly taught in scripture and to deny it is heresy. Instead of persisting in rebellion why not study the evidence in favor of it? See: http://carm.org/trinity AND http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=5176
You guys are all of you wet from this arguing. Look at his doctrine, he is not teaching anything about the nature of the godhead. He is as he says re-searching things. And does not insist that he is right about anything. To attack him is very very Pharisee like. Listen to his voice, he obviously loves Jesus and honors the father at the same time. He is not some knid of nut who wants you to kill your self or make your self god. He is obviously full of the Holy Spirit…this info must be looked at. We need to observe all possible warnings and decide between them which is right….he says nothing more than
this….after all he just wants to be a film maker…who doesnt want that? especially for a guy that will honor the Father and the Son and the Spirit. By the way call me a heretic if you like …I believe that God is one and jesus is his son, and the holy Spirit is that same God, I don’t worry about structure I look at the fruits that the tree brings forth.
David,
You are grossly misinformed. Was Rob full of the holy spirit when he called the doctrine of the trinity “the very definition of absolute heresy”? Without any training in theology or biblical studies he labels us all heretics. Seriously, he is the most prideful arrogant person I have ever encountered.
See it in his own words: http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=5144
Cris, here you are still spewing the same vile accusations, ad nauseum . . . aligning yourself with the Accuser of the Brethren, still! Even after so many have pleaded with you to stop, but you continue to heap more and more shame upon yourself. Sad. Very sad.
It is apparent that you, Mr. Credentials (who knows the bible, I’m certain now, better than any of the Pharisees), have NO ANSWERS — and by “no” I mean ZERO — to explain any of the “flaws” in your much-touted, long-held, man-made theology regarding the personhood of the Trinity (the ones I posted in my comment above David’s here).
I agree with David, and will say it more directly than what he implied:
Rob Skiba, though he may not have myriads of credentials in theology — is a much better representation of Jesus Christ than your arrogant self. You have so aligned yourself with the Accuser of the Brethren that you evidently cannot even feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit — you know, the One you’re so proud of defending! Rob grew up with his nose in his King James bible — so strong was his faith that he started a bible study in his high school. He’s been a missionary, serving God in foreign places. My point being, he was taught the Scriptures and to love God BY THE HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF.
So I wonder who knows the Holy Spirit better, you or Rob?
The answer lies in the fruit. And yours is smelling rotten from here.
Dear Chris,
Not at all, Rob never denies the existence of the trinity; he affirms another significance to each of the figures.
“Many of you misconstrue Rob’s words when you claim that he said the Trinity is absolute heresy, when in fact he said “the majority-view Trinity doctrine (three persons in one) is heresy” [first reply, last paragraph]. Huge difference”
The subject of the nature of the Godhead has been in dispute since before Constantine, and having nowhere in his teachings a specific denial of any of the figures, but only another understanding of their relations (which includes the figure of the father), we are not competent to negatively judge his intentions. This is solely the domain of the law giver God almighty. Being the Father above all, (knowing all things), the Son as alpha and omega, (and not knowing either the day or the hour), and His Holy Spirit (acting as both a force and a person in this world), if someone disagrees about their exact relations, it is not only understandable, it is to be expected. We are all finite beings. We are all essentially unqualified to decide the nature of the infinite, much less judge others on the basis of such incomplete knowledge. We note that the word “trinity” doesn’t yet exist in the Bible, so, how can we (or even the entire church), demand that someone abide by our interpretation of that which was not, given a proper name. The Canon was closed and has never been opened to include it. It would be presumptuous. Disagreements about the case are frequent, particularly in the details, and the subject has divided the church before. But can you really affirm that your version of the Trinity is exactly the same as the believer who sits on either side of you? If someone suffers from a serious misunderstanding, does that mean that he is evil? Does not God reveal to whom he will, what he will, when he wills? If you disagree, it is normal to state your case and make it known exactly where you think he is wrong. Yet, I reject, (and counsel others to also reject) condemnation, or discourteous treatment, of any Christian on the basis of this issue alone. I believe you have failed in this Chris. You have presumed to declare things concerning a motive to intentionally deceive. I know you feel that you are justified, I do not. May God judge between us, enlighten us, and succor all of us in this matter.
Having said all this, I remind everyone that Rob Skiba is treading dangerous ground at every step he takes in his studies. The man is researching for all, some very pertinent and long buried subject matter, and is risking great error at every step. May God protect Rob in his work for the sake of his listeners; that he does not stray, because in these times it is becoming much easier to be led astray (as the Bible predicts). The subject matter is dangerous in itself, and though his completely literalist viewing of the bible is encouraging, it is also fraught with simple dangers as we all know. How many times have the churches been filled by their pastors… thru un-thoughtful parroting of the current fashionable interpretation of the Revelations and the Apocalypse? Many Bible teachers therefore affirm that the apostles themselves were mistaken as to the day and the hour, thinking that it was to be expected within their own generation. So, believing in him (or his interpretation), too much, (when he errors), is ill advised. My principle, “Take everything that Rob Skiba says with a grain of salt.” It is good advice, take it. Yet to his credit, He admits as much, all along the way. My personal opinion is that when he gets his “Seed” series up and running, we will be able to discern, I say, the fruits. Dangerous times these are for a dangerous finale.
Friendly yours,
kauaii
You are not free to redefine the term trinity to mean something else and then claim to believe it — that is pure deception.
Laura, it is not being an “accuser of the brethren” to point out a denial of Scripture’s teachings. Ron Skiba does not know the Holy Spirit since he denies the personhood of the Holy Spirit and denies the Trinity, a teaching found in God’s word and confessed by Christians for 2,000 years. In fact, Christians are told to expose false teachings and that is what is being done by Chris. If one has the nature of God wrong, one does not have the right Jesus nor salvation. So this is serious and needs to be exposed.
Marcia, please read my long post [above my previous one], where I addressed every ridiculous accusation and assumption you just wrote.
I showed (in my long post) from a very logical viewpoint how you are misconstruing Rob’s words when you claim that he denies the Trinity. It’s just a stupid accusation, as any reasonable person (and one who is not blinded by pride) can see from reading Rob’s replies to Cris. It’s in black and white, for goodness sakes! Re-read it for yourself.
ROB NEVER DENIED THE TRINITY!
He denies the PERSONHOOD of the Trinity. And NOWHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES IT SAY THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON!!! So how can you say he is not worshipping the same God as you?
What part of that do you not understand?
According to Scripture, the Holy Spirit is the “RUACH” (Hebrew) of God — the breath, wind, spirit of God. Not a PERSON.
According to Scripture, the Holy Spirit:
• is powerful, like a mighty, forceful wind
• is gentle, like a peaceful dove
• appears as a tongue of fire (Acts 2:3)
• flows like a river of water or anointing oil
• is poured out onto human flesh (Joel 2:28)
• is imparted to believers
• fills us (Eph 5:18)
• moves and brings about creation (Gen 1:2)
• makes us feel giddy like wine (Eph 5:18)
All of these are dynamic characteristics attributed solely to the Holy Spirit and not to the other two members of the Godhead, Jesus the Son and God the Father, giving the Holy Spirit a special role in the Godhead.
He is not LESS THAN the other members of the Godhead; they are ALL EQUAL. THEY ARE ALL GOD. Together they make up the DEITY of God, the Holy TRINITY.
My point in listing the characteristics above is to show you that none of them are characteristics of a PERSON.
And while Scripture reveals that there ARE many characteristics that the Holy Spirit embodies that ARE shared with that of a person, they are not exclusive to a person — thus negating the absoluteness of personhood.
For example, Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit:
• is referred to as “He” and “Him”
• has feelings (He groans and can be grieved)
• has a personality
• has a presence (Acts 2:2)
• comforts us
• leads us
• teaches us
• is powerful
• shares His companionship with us
And while these ARE characteristics of a PERSON, they are also characteristics of animals — !! Therefore, we logically conclude that these characteristics DO NOT A PERSON MAKE.
………………………………………………….
***NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON.***
The Holy Spirit is NOT A PERSON — but He IS a very
PERSONAL,
POWERFUL,
COMFORTING,
DYNAMIC,
EQUAL
MEMBER
OF THE HOLY TRINITY OF GOD
………………………………………………….
But if you choose to go on believing that the Holy Spirit IS a person — what do I care? We are still worshipping the same TRIUNE God.
So why do you “majority viewers” care so much whether anyone chooses to believe the Holy Spirit is NOT a person? WHAT DO YOU CARE? We are still worshipping the same TRIUNE God.
I know why you care so much. The answer is very clear to me now…
Rob Skiba is making a movie that Satan does NOT want to come forth — so he looked among his most favorite victims, the flock of God, to see who would make a good tool for stopping Rob in his tracks . . . and there he found, yours truly, Mr. Credentials himself.
Run, Marcia, run!
I pray that God’s vision for the SEED movie to come to life through whichever means He chooses. I bind the enemy from his divisive tactics within the Body of Christ, and I pray that God will get much glory from this on-going attack against his anointed and chosen. I pray His great mercy to be upon you, Cris and Company; I pray that you will humble yourselves, before the Lord has to bring you to your knees.
I can’t help but wonder if you are the beginning of the great falling away :-/
Just wanted to say that of all the people commenting on this post that you (Laura) make the most sense to me in not only of your defense of Rob but in your understanding of the scriptures as well. But no matter how many times you or someone else points out that Rob never denied the trinity, his accusers are either all too busy being thrilled by the sound of their own voices or caught up in the thought that they are indeed wise when reading their own comments that they cannot see or hear anything else anyone tries to explain to them. They are truly ignorant, prideful, lovers of self “and not the word’ from what I have read.
That is why no matter how many times someone explains what Rob was actually saying, the very next post continues on with the exact same accusations. They do not see, they do not hear. The name of the Savior is indeed on their lips but not in their hearts.
I believe they are the beginning (as well as many others) of the great falling away as you mentioned. You can tell/show the blinded all day long what the actual scripture says but they will “always” insist that their ideas overrule any word, explanation or instruction given in the Bible by the very God they claim to worship, because they obviously think that they are wiser, smarter and more righteous than the creator himself. That is where the “TRUE” heresy lies in this entire post for me.
I will join you in praying for these individuals as they are the ones most at risk for “easily” being swayed into following the doctrines of man over the doctrines of God. It always starts with the denial of the true meaning of Gods word, EVEN WHEN STATED PLAINLY AND IN BLACK AND WHITE by those of us who CAN read English. It amazes me how easily Satan takes away ones ability to understand what the Bible “DOES NOT SAY” even when reminded by another Christian. May God bless you. I have enjoyed reading your “easily understandable” replies on this subject!
Daniel — I do not need you to tell me what Rob “was trying to say.” I am absolutely sure about what he wrote. I have the printed conversations in my facebook notes. You have no idea what you are talking about. Rob not only denies the trinity he has labeled everyone who believes it a heretic, this is a matter of public record.
Cris——- I’m sorry———you obviously interpreted what I wrote in the wrong way. It’s OK though——you have shown through your other comments that understanding the written word is problematic for you because of your inability to separate what is said from what is not said. For example….I never said (or wrote) that “I” needed to tell you or anyone else for that matter what Rob “was trying to say”. I did say however (in a nutshell) that no matter how many times it was explained to his accusers (BY ANYONE) what he did/did not say that the accusations of his denial continue on……..as a matter of fact……your name was not even mentioned.
I would not “waste my time” trying to explain anything to you (or anyone else) as others have already done an “excellent” job and you still do not hear them and/or understand them because you insist on placing words into Rob’s writing (and now mine) that are simply not there to begin with. Your so wrapped up in proving your claim of his denial that you can’t even absorb the proper meaning of what you are reading. Feel free to print this conversation for your Facebook notes also. My advice would be for you to re-read those notes but much slower the next time around. Maybe then you will discover the difference in understanding what you are reading versus “PUTTING WORDS IN SOMEONES MOUTH”. God bless you!
AND ANOTHER THING……what is it with “ANYONE” commenting that Mr. Skiba does not worship the same God? Even if he didn’t understand the Trinity or the Godhead or “whatever” you want to call it the way that he should……is he not allowed the same opportunity to learn and grow in Christ as others before him? Oh wait……..I forgot……..you became the most wisest of God’s followers the moment you were saved. To that I say……………wake up from the dream you are obviously still having.
Do you really think that the early believers in God (before the birth of Jesus) understood the difference/indifference between the Trinity, the Godhead and the Holy Spirit? How could they being that they had not been exposed to him in the flesh as the son of God? So they didn’t worship the same God either according to this ridiculous claim on some of the comments?
Romans 14: 1-13 come to mind for me and who of his accusers can deny that they are “NOT” doing the exact opposite of what these passages of scripture say???? NONE OF YOU and that’s not a judgement…….IT’S A FACT. I can’t wait to read the comments that will come in an attempt to justify this behavior 🙂 🙂 🙂
Laura, you misunderstand what is meant by “personhood” and “person.” It does not mean a human but rather the attributes of mind, reason, intelligence, personal attributes such as God the Father and God the Son have. The Bible clearly shows this:
THE HOLY SPIRIT’S WORKS MANIFEST PERSONALITY
A. THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAKS…
1. He “expressly says” that some will depart from the faith – 1 Ti
4:1
2. The Spirit spoke and gave directions to Philip – Ac 8:29
3. He spoke to Peter and gave him charge concerning the Gentiles
– Ac 10:19-20
4. He spoke to the brethren at Antioch concerning Paul and
Barnabas – Ac 13:1-4
B. THE HOLY SPIRIT TEACHES…
1. He was to teach the apostles all things – Jn 14:26
2. Please note that Jesus consistently refers to the Holy Spirit
as “He”, not “it” (implying a personal being, not an impersonal
force) – cf. Jn 14:16-17
C. THE HOLY SPIRIT BEARS WITNESS…
1. He was to testify of Jesus – Jn 15:26-27
2. Just as the apostles (who were “personal beings”) would bear
witness, so also the Holy Spirit
D. THE HOLY SPIRIT GUIDES, HEARS, SPEAKS, TELLS…
1. He would carry on and complete the work started by Jesus – Jn
16:12-13
2. Notice again that Jesus consistently refers to the Holy Spirit
as “He”
E. THE HOLY SPIRIT FORBIDS…
1. He prevented Paul and his companions from going into certain
areas of Asia – Ac 16:6-7
2. This He did by “forbidding” them, and “not permitting” them,
despite their initial efforts
F. THE HOLY SPIRIT INTERCEDES…
1. The “Spirit Himself (note Paul’s use of the personal pronoun)
makes intercession for us” – Ro 8:26
2. Just as Christ “also makes intercession for us” – Ro 8:34
[All these works of the Holy Spirit manifest personality. But there is
more…]
II. THE HOLY SPIRIT POSSESSES PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS
A. HE HAS A MIND…
1. “the mind of the Spirit” – Ro 8:27
2. This suggests thinking on His own
B. HE HAS KNOWLEDGE…
1. He “knows the things of God” – 1Co 2:11
2. Just as the “spirit of man” (a personal being) knows certain
things
C. HE POSSESSES AFFECTION…
1. Paul speaks of “the love of the Spirit” – Ro 15:30
2. When have you known of an “impersonal force” that could love?
D. HE HAS A WILL…
1. “the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each
one individually as He wills” – 1Co 12:11
2. It was the Holy Spirit Who decided what person received which
gift
[Again, these are all characteristics of a being possessing intelligence
and personality. Finally, consider how…]
III. THE HOLY SPIRIT SUFFERS PERSONAL SLIGHTS AND INJURIES
A. HE CAN BE GRIEVED…
1. “do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God” – Ep 4:30
2. He can be made sorrowful through our willful neglect
B. HE CAN BE BLASPHEMED…
1. That is, to be spoken evil of
2. As in attributing His deeds to the works of Satan, the
“unforgivable sin” – Mt 12:31-32
C. HE CAN BE INSULTED…
1. One who has “trampled the Son of God underfoot” has also
“insulted the Spirit of grace” – He 10:29
2. This is done by sinning “willfully” – He 10:26
D. HE CAN BE LIED TO…
1. As Ananias and his wife Sapphira were guilty of doing
2. “…why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy
Spirit…?” – Ac 5:3
Yes, Daniel, we are in agreement that God’s perfect will will prevail in all of this! I am praying for God to bring low that which needs to be brought low; for pride to have to bow it’s knee, and humility to come forth; I am praying for a spirit of unity among the brethren and for reconciliation; and of course, for truth to penetrate the hearts of all whom this debate has affected, that no matter how blinded any of His children are (myself included), that He will have mercy upon us and draw us to a place of repentance so that we will be able to see Him and worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Thank you for your post (Daniel) — I never, EVER make comments on the web. But when I read this article last weekend and then this entire thread, the absence of a strong voice of reason was glaringly missing, so I decided to step up :p
I wanted to reiterate something that was already mentioned by David (above) when he wrote:
“We are all essentially unqualified to decide the nature of the infinite, much less judge others on the basis of such incomplete knowledge.”
There is much wisdom in that statement. And I hope that Cris and Marcia (in particular) ruminate on it until it sinks in. I think we can ALL agree that the Godhead — though known “in part” by us — is still a mystery to our finite minds.
“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” ~ 1 Corinthians 13:12
So if the nature of God is still a mystery, i.e. not able to be fully comprehended by anyone because God’s ways are higher than ours (Isaiah 55:9), how is it that Christians can come to the conclusion that if someone does not understand the “true nature” of God, then they cannot know Him, be saved, worship Him, or have His Holy Spirit?
Are not Believers in-dwelt by God’s Holy Spirit at the moment they are born again? What then? Does God give us a certain time frame to learn of His “true nature,” and if we fail then the Holy Spirit says “buh-bye”? Did the Holy Spirit leave me a few days ago when i decided to forego the “majority-view” doctrine of the Trinity because I found that I now agreed with Rob Skiba’s belief that the Holy Spirit is not a “person”? (Before you try to answer that, let me assure you that He has not).
I simply am trying to help you all to think for yourselves, to think logically and with the mind of Christ. Be aware that these are end times when deception will abound more and more. The doctrines of demons manifest through the teachings of man, even Christians, even Christians that we may esteem! We are all vulnerable. So pray for discernment, remain humble, don’t put faith in your own wisdom but draw near to the Lord always, and question often. He will lead His sheep to the place of safety, so follow Him and no other. God bless.
Bottom line is that God has revealed who he is in his word and that is a Trinitarian God. Many, many posts here have shown this and pointed out good links for it. But those who reject this and want to continue to believe in another god — because that is what the non-Trinitarian god is — are not wanting to see what Scripture says for whatever reasons.
No one can talk about the true Christ if they are rejecting God’s nature. The OT saints did not have the fullness of revelation we have now so they were not responsible for understanding what we can with the NT. Yet there are OT passages that hint at or show a Trinity.
I think as “christians”, we ought to be very careful when knocking down each other just because someone didn’t say/write something in the exact precise way someone else expects. If Rob has a difference in opinion on something, let him, which from what I’ve read so far, it doesn’t even sound like he even did.
I have no doubt that he believes what it most important, which is that Jesus Christ is the only way. I agree that the Word of God is truth, but as has always happened, people have different interpretations. I will admit that there are things that when I look back, I interpreted wrong, but now God has opened my eyes on it. That doesn’t mean I was a bad person back then or part of a cult. I am a christian, praying for the Father, in Jesus’s name, to give me the wisdom and strength to understand His Word, correctly, as I study it. Love you all! :o)
Doctrine does divide. If someone is denying the nature of God and who he is as the Trinitarian God, they are not a Christian. Rob does not just have a difference of opinion; he is rejecting who God is as revealed in Scripture. It has been true for 2000 years that anyone who denies the Trinity (which means Jesus is not who he says he is in the non-Trinity view) is not part of the Christian faith. So criticizing Rob is not criticizing a Christian; it is pointing out a false teacher.
There is no salvific Jesus in a non-Trinitarian God because then the only options are: Jesus is a lower god; Jesus is not god; Jesus does not really exist but was just an extension of God the Father; God the Father does not exist if Jesus is the Father and that makes Jesus a liar every time he said “my Father” (which is numerous times) and that he was sent by the Father and when he prayed to the Father.
Yikes! No one would know whether Rob is saved or not, because they couldn’t possibly, just as I couldn’t possibly know if you are or the next person. I think the “christians” who try to act as though they can read and interpret God’s word better than anyone else, are the ones who seem to have issues. Or is this really a ‘trying to impress the website’s host’ issue? I agree that christians should warn people of false doctrine, however it’s the manner in which it’s done, that makes all the difference. Finger pointing and name calling, as has been done to Rob, is embarrassing, to put it mildly…
Charity, if someone denies the true God and true Jesus, no, they are not a Christian. We have this from the Bible itself. Have you read the NT and noticed how many false teachers infiltrated the early church? It’s still going on. Paul warned of this in Acts 20 in his last message to the churches. Denying the Trinity is denying the true God and leaves Jesus as a false Jesus, as I explained above.
Yes, there were lots of false teachers, as there are in our day. Decades ago as a young christian, I didn’t even understand the trinity at first. That certainly didn’t make me ‘unsaved’ all of a sudden. If Rob has repented and accepted Christ as his Savior, and meant it with all of his heart, there is no doubt that he is saved, whether he misinterpreted a verse in the Bible or not and I’m not saying he even did.
The name calling and finger pointing “christians”, I guess is what’s so un-christian about all this. If someone wants to warn people about a doctrine they don’t agree with, that’s awesome, but do it respectfully and humbly. Your point and warning can get across without attacking an individual and calling them names and saying they belong to a cult. I mean, really? How horrible. I think Rob and Chris both, are intelligent individuals who have been bold enough to put themselves out there publicly, which is more than I can say for a lot of people, but attacking someone like that is just horrible.
I have see no unfair attacks or personal attacks here on Ron. The only attacks and name calling I’ve seen have been on those of us defending the Trinity and pointing out false teachings. So now it’s about the attacks and not the issue itself. That is what often happens – those who don’t believe in the Trinity will try to deflect the issue so that those pointing out the error are somehow blamed. Nice try but no cigar.
You may not have read this from Chris, but this was his statement, that is saying that Rob is cultic… As was posted above: “This is Rob’s comment from our facebook discussion that first alarmed me to his ‘cultic’ theology.” Even after Rob said several times that he believes in the Trinity and even explains it, he was constantly picked on. So I guess I haven’t seen the proof you’re referring to that he doesn’t believe in the Trinity, even though the poor guy said over and over that he did. Maybe sometimes people want to think or see something so bad, in order to try to knock someone else down, that it becomes a reality in their minds?
Going back to the ‘cult’ thing, that was totally uncalled for by a ‘christian’. Because you’re personally attacking the person, not the ‘assumed’ doctrine. No matter how many times Rob tries to say over and over again that he believes in the Trinity, he’s still not right, correct? So yeh, it’s about the attacks in my eyes since brother Rob exhausted his proclamation that he does indeed believe in the Trinity.
‘Nice try, no cigar?’ Really? – I love you anyway…
I find it interesting that my post about the Holy spirit having fathered Jesus was “somehow” ruled out. I suppose you will rule this post out as well? I said nothing indecent in the post at all, I attacked no one. So why deny that the logic is obvious? This does not mean that it is true, but it does mean that there is a lot that we just do not know. Any way, good luck with your site here, but please try to open it up for commentary that you do not agree with …like mine. By the way Chris Putnam, your site your rules isn’t it?
This is great. Just spent hours reading every post on this thread. I was actually intrigued with some of Rob’s teaching, and looking into more when I came across this. Glad I did. I have a few notes on what I saw in this discussion. I always find it interesting when one is pridefully calling another prideful, or accusing others of being an accuser. Great stuff. Jesus name called and accused, btw. These are not ungodly actions depending on context. False accusation is wrong, and slander is wrong. Jesus called the Pharisees snakes and white-washed tombs. He turned tables over in the temple and fashioned a whip (an essentially non-lethal weapon if used in moderation) to drive the offenders out of the temple. You have the wrong Jesus if you think he’s this nicety-nice softy who doesn’t divide or debate or call people out on doctrine. And he does so out of love for those being mislead and deceived, and even to break through to the hearts of the deceivers.
To say one’s teaching or view is “cultic” is not a personal slam, it is an observation. To openly discuss a potential fallacy being taught to others is absolutely biblical. Rob has not been bashed here or slandered. The points of discussion did not go to personal attacks, as have comments accusing some here of pridefulness, but simply to readable, posted comments made by Rob himself.
I find it interesting that people continue to push arguments that were already addressed. Did you not read the thread? Did you not click on any of the links posted for clarity? The “person” issue was dealt with in detail. “Person” is in reference to a personality, not a physical person, so yes, in that sense it could apply to an animal as well. The “Personhood” of the Holy Spirit references a being with personal characteristics like feelings and thoughts, as opposed to something without such characteristics, like a rock. Would you call a tree “him” or “her”? If so, then maybe you should have this discussion with your pillow. He, the Holy Spirit, is referred to as such, and has thoughts and feelings, and He can act and move and do of his own accord. He can also be blasphemed. Try grieving or blaspheming a stick or a lamp.
Additionally, people commenting here continue to argue that Rob stated that he believed in the Trinity, which was agreed upon by all. The problem lies with his stated definition of the Trinity, and his definition of the Holy Spirit. It’s one thing to have a humble misunderstanding of the nature of God, and onother thing entirely to call an essential doctrine of the faith “heresy”. That clarifies that one vehemently denies the doctrine, as opposed to not quite grasping it.
Also, to whom it may concern, claiming to be the only one speaking any sense in this thread sounds pretty arrogant and prideful to me. Just an observation for those calling others “prideful”.