By Cris Putnam
A “sacred cow” is an idiom taken from Hindu bovine worship, a practice that Christians consider idolatry. We also call something a sacred cow if its devotees consider it immune from question or criticism. For many fundamentalist Christians the King James Translation has become a sacred cow. Unfortunately, a great many people have been indoctrinated from childhood with scare tactics and fallacious arguments and never meaningfully question what has come to be known as “King James Onlyism” or KJVonlyism.
For an example of the fear based argumentation I am referring to, examine the webpage at Chick Productions here. I am not intending to simply make fun of these people and I have a lot in common with them. I went to a KJV only Christian school for one year of high school so I really do care about the people. That eleventh grade year at Friendship Christian School led me to believe that most Christians were mind controlled and incapable of critical thinking. I’ve grown to see I was wrong about a great deal but, sadly, some of my adolescent analysis was accurate.
Fear based false beliefs are called “strong holds” in the Bible and part of my call to ministry is the destruction of strongholds (2 Cor. 10:4). This is not an attack on the Bible or even the King James Version. Rather, it is an attack on a false idea about the Bible—a stronghold—I am slaughtering a sacred cow. Here is the primary argument you will see repeatedly used by the KJVonlyist:
Psalm 12:6-7 says, “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.” Then we read in Psalm 100:5 that “. . . . his truth endureth to all generations,” and Jesus said in John 17:17 that God’s WORD is truth.’
These words state very clearly that God’s preserved word MUST be available to us today, because God PROMISED to preserve it for us. There MUST be an infallible Book somewhere.[1]
Similarly, in a discussion on Facebook a fellow asked me, “If God can’t keep His word pure (as he promised in Psalm 12), how can I trust Him to keep ME?” You can see the dangerous nature of such indoctrination in that his faith is hinged precariously on something as fragile as the absolute perfection of a seventeenth century translation. The same fellow later commented, “No. I’m thinking if I can’t trust any of the versions to be accurate, PERFECTLY, then why bother. Either God is able or He isn’t.” (Use of all caps reflects that I copied this directly from a real conversation).
How do you respond to this without destroying someone’s faith? Well first of all it is unfortunate that his faith is in the wrong thing. I believe this is idolatry or perhaps bibliolatry. These folks have made an idol out of the King James Bible. Next, notice the selfish demands placed on God. “If God will not meet my requirements, then why bother?” That is quite a presumption. It reminds me of the atheists who say, “If God wants me to believe in Him, then he should appear to me.”
Is it wise to make demands of God …or else?
You might get an answer like, “Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?” (Job 38:2)
I realize many of you might be thinking, “Hold on a minute! God promised he would do this in Psalm 12, so this is not an unreasonable expectation.” Indeed, that is the crux of the KJVonlyist argument.However, it is riddled with errors and assumptions.
First, even if the Lord promised to preserve his words, (I do believe he has preserved them) the words the Psalmist was referring to were Hebrew words not 17th century English words. It also begs the question of where God’s preserved words were before 1611? What about non-English speaking countries? But the argument’s worst flaw is actually more egregious than that erroneous assumption. It’s truly self-refuting.
Unfortunately, in this case the King James translation leads one to misunderstand the Psalm in a fundamental way. This is why serious Bible students put in the effort to gain at least some minimal competence in Hebrew and Greek exegesis. I am far from an expert but I have completed one year of biblical Hebrew at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary as well as working through Dr. Michael Heiser’s training videos for Logos Bible software on my own (available here).
Using Logos’ interlinear Hebrew Bible, it took me less than five minutes to see that they misinterpret Psalm 12. To understand why a brief explanation of basic grammar is helpful. In Hebrew, all nouns have what is called grammatical gender. Many languages like French and Spanish do as well. It serves as a grammatical function more than a commentary on sexual gender. Part of that function is to clarify what or who a pronoun is signifying. Accordingly, a pronoun should match its antecedent in gender and number.
For example, if I say in English “My wife went to the store.” I would choose a feminine pronoun to continue, “She bought milk.” The antecedent “wife” is female, so “she” is correct and “he” is not. Number is similar; in this case, both are singular. However, if I wrote “The women went to the store.” The pronoun would be “They bought milk.” Now let’s analyze the passage in light of Hebrew grammar.
The words of the LORD are pure words (noun, common, feminine, plural):
as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them (pronoun, 3rd person, masculine, plural),
O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever.
(Ps 12:6–7, KJV)
The genders are parsed from the Hebrew text. Here is the passage from the Hebrew Bible:
אִֽמֲר֣וֹת יְהוָה֮ אֲמָר֪וֹת טְהֹ֫ר֥וֹת כֶּ֣סֶף צָ֭רוּף בַּעֲלִ֣יל לָאָ֑רֶץ מְ֝זֻקָּ֗ק שִׁבְעָתָֽיִם׃
אַתָּֽה־יְהוָ֥ה תִּשְׁמְרֵ֑ם תִּצְּרֶ֓נּוּ׀ מִן־הַדּ֖וֹר ז֣וּ לְעוֹלָֽם׃
Here are the parsings:
Noun, Common, Feminine, Plural “words” —- אֲמָר֪וֹת
Pronoun, Suffixed, 3rd person, Masculine, Plural —- הֵם is suffixed on תִּשְׁמְרֵ֑ם
For their argument to work, “them” must match “words.” However, in verse 6 “words” is grammatically feminine and the pronoun “them” in verse 7 is grammatically masculine. So the pronoun “them” is not referring to “words” but rather the poor and needy (masculine, plural) that are mentioned above in verse 5 (Ps 12:5). In fact, this is one passage where the NIV (cue foreboding music) has a vastly superior rendering to the KJV.
Psalm 12:6–7 (NIV):
6 And the words of the Lord are flawless,
like silver purified in a crucible,
like gold refined seven times.
7 You, Lord, will keep the needy safe
and will protect us forever from the wicked,
Don’t place your faith in sacred cows.
[1] “How I Know That The King James Bible Is The Word Of God,” http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/knowkjv.html accessed 8/17/2013.
[2] Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia: With Werkgroep Informatica, Vrije Universiteit Morphology; Bible. O.T. Hebrew. Werkgroep Informatica, Vrije Universiteit. (Logos Bible Software, 2006), Ps 12:7–8.
About Cris Putnam
Cris, there is a sacred cow as pure as the kjv and that is the doctrine of pretrib rapture.
I’d be interested in hearing your viewpoint on that.
I have been called unkind and subversive for evening mentioning this before and labeled as the scoffer that shows up in the endtimes. The truth of the matter is that I see a hidden danger in the doctrine and I worry for mt brothers and sisters who may fall for the slick words of the serpent.
I’ve encounter the same thing, that many many more christian’s sacred cow is the doctrine of pretrib rapture… The mere mention that its not supported by the Bible is more offensive to them than blasphemy, and no less offensive than a punch in the nose. The seductive allure of this teaching, as promoted by Kirk Cameron’s Left Behind series, and others, has them believing that God will not allow them to endure percecution but will zap them up before that happens… Christians in persecuted countries don’t believe this extra-biblical doctrine for obvious reasons…
What you must delineate between is satans persecution of the Church and GOD’s Wrath. Through out Church History satan has persecuted the Church, from Steven until today. What the Pre Trib doctrine is teaching is that the Tribulation is GOD’s Wrath being poured out against all ungodliness. We cannot, the Church, be here when GOD’s wrath is poured out on the earth.
I say this because we are the Body of Christ and if GOD pours out HIS wrath on us then Christ is Judged twice. Moses struck the Rock the second time and was forbidden to enter the Promised Land. That Rock was Christ. Christ nor His Body can be Judged or be subject to GOD’s Wrath and the Tribulation is just that and So we cannot be here!
“We cannot, the Church, be here when GOD’s wrath is poured out on the earth.”
I find this assumption to be equally unnerving and can’t be proven through scripture. Who says we can’t be here when wrath comes? It means we are not subject to His wrath.
Ask the ancient Israelites if you can be present when God’s wrath comes. This is the entire basis for passover.
Ask Noah if you can be present when God’s wrath comes.
Being present and being subject are two distincly different things.
Hopeful; Only need Two verse to disprove the pri-trib view.
1. 2Thes1:7 and Pauls tells us in the second one, that this gathering together to Him takes place on The Day of the Lord. 2Thes2:2
The misconception with pri-Tribers is that they consider The Day of the Lord to be the tribulation. But it is not. The Day of the Lord is the day of the glorious return of Jesus with His mighty angels in Flaming fire. 2Thes1:7 2Pet3:10 The day of the Lord is Judgment Day. Rev22:12
The birth pangs do not lead into the tribulation, It leads to the Day of the Lord 1Thes5:2,3
The birth pangs is the tribulation intensifying, (the perplexity of nations) Lk21:25 it is after that which The Son of Man comes in great Power& Glory Lk21:27
we will indeed be here during that time of (God’s wrath) upon the wicked and the remnant church will be persecuted (satan’s wrath) but it will also be the Time when our Light will be the brighter
Or, you could ask “righteous” Lot if he could remain in Sodom while their judgment fell. According to the angels who brought Lot out from Sodom, they “could do nothing” until Lot was gone.
Abraham knew that as well, hence his bargaining with God.
The distinction that “Being present and being subject are two distincly different things” is irrelevant as regards the Church (though Tribulation saints will certainly be glad for it). The (true) Church is promised to be kept from (literally “out of”) the very time of the Tribulation (Rev. 3:10), not just preserved through it.
Scripture makes it clear that the purpose of the Tribulation (Daniel’s 70th Week) is to prepare Israel for the Millennial Kingdom–dealing with her unbelief regarding her Messiah–and to bring Gentile dominion to an end. The Bride of Christ has nothing to do with that final 7 years of the Dispensation of the Law.
Chuckles; you say; that the final 7 years of the Dispensation of the Law.
How do you reconcile this scripture Gal4:4,5 or this one, Rom10:4.
You are implying that God is going to revert back to the law, the very thing with which Jesus the Jewish messiah was accursed on the cross Gal3:13.
The implication of Gal3:13 is that the Law is death. No man shall be justified by the Law Rom3:20
But you say that this is to be so (justification by the Law) for the Jews in a future 7 year dispensation.
The fullness of time which be upon us, Jew and Greek alike does not permit this. Gal4:4
God is finished with the Law! If that was not so, There could be no Grace.
God is not about to play yoyo with the Jews.
Paul the Apostle of the Lord said: ” it is the Gospel which is the power of God for salvation…..to Jews and Greeks” Rom1:16
Lou said
“You are implying that God is going to revert back to the law”
Um, no. I’m not saying that people will be justified by the Law during the 70th 7. No one was ever justified by law, but by faith in the Savior, even in O.T. times.
But Israel–under the Law–was required to demonstrate their faith in their Messiah by practicing the Levitical system. It was part of their national witness to the world.
I implied that the 70th Seven of Daniel (Dan. 9:24-27) must run its course, and during that time Israel will again be the instrument through which God deals with the world. With the Church gone, the gospel of “grace alone” will no longer be preached. Read Revelation 14:12. “The saints” are described as those who “keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus”.
The program for Israel will be back in play for those last 7 years.
Which–btw–is another reason the Church can’t be here on earth during that time.
Chuckles; i think you are missing the point that Messiah has come in fulfilment of the prophets. Isaiah59:20,21
The prophecy of the seventy weeks is an account given beforehand, of the second period of the national existence of the Jewish people.
They were to last as a nation only long enough to fulfil the scriptures, and to accomplish the purpose of God, in bringing forth the Messiah, and putting Him to death.
The time allotted for this was (490 years). 70×7.
There is nothing to suggest that the prophecy did not terminate upon the seventieth week as prophesied. Dan9:24
This being accomplished, God has no further use for Israel. for She (Israel) brought forth The Messiah in fulfilment of the Law & the prophets. Lk16:16
God’s dealings thenceforth were to be with another people, that “Holy Nation” 1Pet2:9 composed of all who believe the everlasting Gospel, and who receive the One who was rejected by His own Jn1:11-13
Chuckles wrote: “According to the angels who brought Lot out from Sodom, they “could do nothing” until Lot was gone.”
Right. And ask lot’s wife how far that got her? She fried for her lack of faith and desire to cling to worldliness outside the city limits.
In each instance, they were shown a way to be “passed over” from God’s wrath and each case it requires faith in the unseen over worldly attachment. Mark the frame of your door with lamb’s blood, build an ark, leave a city and don’t look back.
Being kept “from” trial doesn’t mean taken out of. It means you aren’t included in what is being judged. I can be in a court house while a trial is going on and I am not part of the trial precedings.
You are reading scripture with an agenda with a desire to fit what you read with your expectations.
In answer to the pretrib question: There are many acceptable eschatological views within spectrum of orthodox Christian theology. Is the pretrib doctrine more concerning that your assumption that this doctrine, as opposed to yours, is idolatry? These are not points on which our salvation lies. As we debate sound doctrine, it is important to avoid the 1 Timothy 6:4 error.
Cris,
Thanks for the well-reasoned article. My response to the KJV only crowd is usually, “Well, if the KJV was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for us too, I suppose.” 😉
Hopeful_watcher,
I too have come to question the doctrine of the pretrib rapture. Here’s as article I wrote that outlines my journey away from the pre-trib doctrine and my scriptural reasons for doing so:
http://endtimes.southern.ws/2012/07/19/events-that-precede-the-rapture/
Bold and comprehensive! So nice to hear there is a way out for those who previously held to pretrib rapture.
Since you were on both sides I am sure you can attest to the fact that there is no malice in those who hold to something other than pretrib doctrine. There maybe some pride creep in (I myself have fallen victim) but I believe it if rooted in a love and search for the truth.
We are not with evil hearts out to steel joy from those who yearn for rapture. You can usually tell who are the deluded ones by following the trail of who is defensive when their view is challenged. This is a red flag as to what spirit is at work. I even had one lady tell me that if I didn’t have faith in pretrib rapture (let that sink in for a second) that I would be left behind. I have heard pastors say that if we place our faith in Jesus we will be saved… From tribulation! How is that for changing the gospel of Jesus to the gospel of pretrib rapture.
Sorry Cris that this is off topic from your blog post, but I think its quite similar in that I believe its the same spirit that seeks to enforce these strongholds.
Hopeful_watcher, the way out is to love the truth more than having your ears tickled. My motivation is love for those brothers and sisters who may not be prepared to take a stand for Christ even if it means their death. We don’t like to think about that in the U.S., but that’s been the norm for most of our brothers and sisters in the faith for 2000 years.
My motivation is not malice but make people aware that the pre-trib rapture may not the best interpretation of end-times passages. My motivation is for the people whose faith may be shaken when the pre-trib rapture turns out to be false and that’s all they’ve ever heard and believed. Will they belive [insert favorite theory of what the great deception will be] because their rapture position doesn’t play out like they believed?
What I’ve found is that too many Christians have not even bothered to study this for themselves. I pray that God will awaken many to at least consider that other interpretations have Biblical merit. Most of the people I’ve tried to engage at my church have just pointed me to pre-trib websites or documents written by pre-tribbers. I usually take their arguments and annotate my comments with them. That’s usually where the conversation ends. At least they’ve been warned.
Blessings to you and stay hopeful, my brother!
Hopeful said
“I even had one lady tell me that if I didn’t have faith in pretrib rapture (let that sink in for a second)”
Sadly, there are some pre-tribbers who think that. (I am a pre-tribber who does not.) The irony is that, by holding such a legalistic view, they have abandoned the pre-trib view itself, adopting “partial rapture-ism” in it’s place.
No, sorry to break it to you, but all of you who deride the Pre-Trib view are doomed to be caught up with us pre-tribbers when the event takes place. That is, assuming you are trusting in Christ’s sacrifice alone for your salvation.
Chuckles, I would happily and joyfully be incorrect about pretrib doctrine. Who wouldn’t be joyful? Our blessed hope is to be with Him when He returns. So I desire to be incorrect.
Only time will tell what is truth.
BTW, my position was never that we WILL be on earth when God’s wrath comes, just that we don’t have scriptural evidence enough to say with 100% certainty that we WON’T be.
Being present to wrath and being subject to wrath are different and the bible says we are not subject to His wrath. Whether we are present or not is for God to decide.
To clarify, my ultimate position is prewrath. I think the Chris White video that Cris linked to sums it up best. The confusion is that the term tribulation includes the early part of the wrath of Satan and the day of the Lord (ie The wrath of God) happens sometime in the middle.
Hopeful watcher and pretrib for cow status.
Chris White has done a lot of work on the pretrib doctrine as of late and I am in substantial agreement with him. I defer to him HERE.
As to it being a sacred cow, I’m afraid you are correct see THIS.
My reasons for doubting the pre-trib position are based on my exegetical research paper on 2 Thess. 2 here.
Cris…
Having just read the conclusion of your paper, I don’t see how anything you came up with precludes a pre-trib rapture. (Do I hafta read the whole thing?)
Anyway, the Thessalonians’ alarm at being told (falsely) that they were already in the Day of the Lord makes no sense unless they had already been taught a pre-trib rapture. Otherwise, they would have been joyfully expecting His soon appearance.
Chuckles, do the reading. You are obviously not thinking this through clearly because this comment below is self-refuting (explained in my paper)
If they had been taught pretrib – how could Paul send them a letter that they were already in the day of the Lord? Paul should have been raptured! So did the Thessalonians believe he made a paper airplane and sailed it down from heaven? If they had been taught pretrib they would have never believe the false teaching Paul was correcting. This counts strongly against the notion Paul taught them pretrib.
Cris asked:
“f they had been taught pretrib – how could Paul send them a letter that they were already in the day of the Lord?”
Paul didn’t send them any such letter. Somebody claiming to be Paul, or of his group told them (apparently by letter) that the day of the Lord had begun. That’s why they were confused! The letter contradicted what Paul had already taught them, and hence their confusion and consternation.
Chuckles,
They thought it was a letter from Paul and were dismayed they had entered the day of the Lord. But they never would’ve been deceived by it if they presupposed pretrib.
Mr Putman; this is what you said.
Cris Putnam says:
01/05/2012 at 6:34 pm
Sorry Craig. but I just do not see a conspiracy at all. I don’t know of anyone reputable who believes 1 Jn 5:7 as it appears in the KJV was original. Monks altered the text to support their theology, even if the theology is good we should strive to preserve the text as it was written by the original authors. Perhaps consider: http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=1275
You say ‘Monks altered the text to support their theology’ The question I have for you is; is catholicism Babylonian or Not?
Please answer…
Common you gutless coward, Post my comment.. you may nor want anyone to see it ..but God sees it ,You Child of Babylon..
Wowza! Thank you for the laugh. That felt good.
You assume a broad sweeping generalization and the truth is much more complicated. The Babylonian connection is mostly based on Hyslop’s “Two Babylons” which has been discredited for poor scholarship. That said, there many pagan practices mixed into Roman Catholicism but they are more based on Roman religion than ancient Babylon. For example, the sun God, Sol Invictus – a favorite of Constantine – is still seen in much of their symbolism.
“That eleventh grade year at Friendship Christian School led me to believe that most Christians were mind controlled and incapable of critical thinking.” Have come to the very same conclusion. Thank you, Cris, for provoking us to think for ourselves.
Next sacred cow…..tithing…….
Blessings to all in Christ Jesus!
“The Spirit gives life. The flesh counts for nothing.”
The Lord is clear about the Holy Spirit teaching us. And about the futility of
anything founded on human effort alone. How much more about reading and understanding Scripture.
The Lord is able to speak to us in many ways. And through varied legitimate translations. But how many are willing to “study to show yourself approved” in the sight of the One God?
Seriously Guys — I might have to start filtering comments because nobody comments on the actual post. What does your rapture discussion have to do with the KJV debate?
Write a blog post on rapture and then we will comment on kjv. 🙂
Who am I kidding? No we won’t.
I do apologize, I started that deviation. I should know better as that is always a hotly contested issue. No more from me on the issue. Sorry.
Cris asked:
” What does your rapture discussion have to do with the KJV debate?”
My thought exactly, but I didn’t open the detour. 😉
It had something to do with cows being reverenced, as I recall.
I find myself defering to kjv, for no other reason then 1) I am not a linguist to know the original texts or 2) and I am ashamed to say laziness to not do a word study.
There are times I feel particularly convicted to dig well beyond two or three translations. That is usually on important passages of salvation.
Nothing wrong with that cause the essence of the spirit is still there regardless how much the occultists have tried to spin the various translations over the centuries.
Fact is that there is no such thing as a perfect bible version and after all it is just a book or a compilation of books, serving as an introductory manual. True understanding and deeper revelations come from the Holy Spirit and prayer not the text itself found in the cannon.
You think anyone can truly say they understand the Book of Revelations? They are kidding themselves and if they were to bet their eternal life on it i am sure many would deep down pass that bet.
Owl – I hope you are not believing Gail Ripplinger because she has been exposed as a very poor researcher. Can you justify your statement that occultists “tried to spin the various translations over the centuries”? Please give examples with evidence.
Cris!
Never heard of Gail nor do i think she is in any way relevant to what i was communicating to hopeful’s comment.
In relation to KJV for example, i suppose you are aware that occultist francis bacon was given the king james translation for a whole year prior to the king finally authorizing a version for print in 1611. This is the same francis bacon who is a proponent of new atlantis which is in essence the true antichrist NWO if you understand behind the scenes work of the freemasonry and the druid councils for several millenia. John Dee was also a particular influence here, research his occult origins. Bottom line, these agents of satan are always influentially positioned to pervert the Word and offer a spin towards their fallen god and his fallen kingdom.
As for other biblical translations just use some common logic and deductive reasoning. Those on earth who rule make the rules and thus exert influence within all writing during their reign not excluding the era of the roman empire. You don’t really think that the synagogue of satan and its pharisaical priesthoods have stopped with their influential works since Jesus condemned them? Amongst other key things this priesthood has owned publishing houses since the invention of print. Therefore relying on just the biblical text alone regardless of translation without the light of the Holy Spirit raises the probability of swallowing one of satan’s lies.
Wow that’s different owl, so just to be clear your position is that KJV is a Satanic translation? Is that what you are saying?
Not satanic but quite possibly with a good amount of satanic embeds within the text. Satan knows his greatest tricks can be concealed in the gray area rather than playing in the obvious black or white fields. It is hard to sell obvious evil to good meaning folks and much easier to conceal it within good appearing packages. Thus burying lies in truth works like magic and a non-discerning reader will never know. Masonic cutouts posing as priests/pastors/scholars will make sure these lies pose as truth and majority will just accept them. Over time even a lie can turn into a “popular fact” without much critical questioning.
True seeker/follower knows that even discernment is a limitation relative to the understanding that can be gained with the help of the Holy Spirit. This includes making the embedded lies appear as thorns.
In a nutshell, this is not just a problem with the kjv but all other translations just the same.
This is why relying on the spirit of truth that will lead us into all understanding is so critical to overcome the deception. Without it, even the elect would be deceived! That is a strong deception indeed.
No amount of brain power or scholarship will overcome this deception. Consider this seemingly heretical statement. Most prophecy in the bible, as far as I can tell, is fulfilled by Satan. The crucifixion of our Lord was prophecied. By who’s hands? By those who were under the influence of Satan. This excludes certainly the conception and birth of Jesus, but I believe most everything else is actually fulfilled by Satan, with the full knowledge and permission from God of course.
My point is I agree with owl that there might be seeds of deceit sprinkled throughout traditional translations. I believe the books of the dead sea scrolls like the book of enoch are 100% inspired works of Satan. I also agree with jay in that corruption of God’s word might be a big part of the end times deception with these other seemingly spiritual books thrown in to muddy up the works. Book of enoch will be exalted later when the act of angel worship is promoted, imo.
This is one of my favorite verses in revelation is when john bows down to worship.the angel and the angel commands him, do not do it!
If you believe this is possible it is because you have never studied the Bible and its text in much depth. I know dozens of people personally that can read Greek and Hebrew. There are millions of scholars that can read the original languages. The old manuscripts are available for examination online, even the dead sea scrolls are online. The translations like ESV and NASB are done by groups of scholars -conservative inerrancy upholding scholars – bycommittee and they debate and vote… its not just improbable it’s absurd.
So you assert that Jesus’ brother Jude was deceived and his quote from Enoch in the NT is a mistake in the Bible? Most people who have done any study realize more than one author was at work in Enoch but even so it does not paint a pretty picture for those who oppose God.
Owl, do you have any actual evidence of this “burying lies”? Can you provide even one example?
For what you have proposed to be true, not only would the tampering have taken place in the KJV English, then the persons involved would have to travel around and alter all of the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts it is based on. We should be able to see those alterations as the manuscript would much older than the alterations. This is one of the most scrutinized texts in the world. How do you explain why no one sees this? That’s an incredible if not completely impossible amount of work and a lot of people involved. Then for the “masonic cutouts” to teach and promote these counterfeits they would have to be told where and what they are… so this entails a huge number of people having this knowledge. Have you ever thought through the sheer magnitude of the conspiracy you have proposed? It seems improbable. I don’t think you have ever thought this through very carefully.
It seems to me too many people invoke the Holy Spirit to sanctify their speculations when they should be studying and learning from teachers as Jesus commanded.
Justifying speculations by invoking the holy spirit is a huge danger, but how can you say we are not instructed to emphasis the holy spirit, when we are told not to lean on our own understanding and The spirit of truth will lead us into all understanding.
Cris, you are one of the better intellectuals that I gravitate to and cherish their writings. However, what happens when a conviction of your spirit conflicts with some knowledge you hold to be true? What shall you do then?
All knowledge is open to examination. So I would examine the basis on which I held it to be true as well as the basis of the conviction. This involves prayer but also study. As in reading what other Christian scholars and theologians have written in the past. We have 2000 years of work to start from and most of the issues that people stumble over have already been addressed. The problem is most folks are too superficial to read a systematic theology textbook or something with substance.
Leaving aside that no one is beyond the potential for deception (look at Peter when Jesus get behind me Satan), there is no clear evidence that Jude is referencing the book of enoch that was found amongst the dead sea scrolls.
And yes, it does paint a grim picture of the enemies of God, but it is also filled with borderline angel worship. A huge ref flag.
It is a fact that Many translations are composed to reflect certain theological status. some even have their particular theology attached.
owl; Could you provide the source of your information Please.
I was always under the impression that the KJV had it’s roots in the reformer’s Wycliff Bible.
I amy be wrong! But it is interesting what you say (these agents of satan are always influentially positioned to pervert the Word and offer a spin towards their fallen god and his fallen kingdom)
The undermining of the Word of God will I think play a very big part in the end-Time deception.
I think the hidden dangers in certain translations are not that they are out and out false, but that they are phrased in such a way that we make certain assumptions that lead us astray.
For example, I am exploring a theory that, if true, would be an example of this. We assume the “two witnesses” of revelation to be holy and righteous. I agree that on the outset this is definitely true, but there might in grained falsities that confuse us. My theory is that the two witnesses are the catholic and protestant church. The two figure heads that are prominent here would be the pope and The leader of England. Upon their death in Jerusalem when they are resurrected, they become the false prophet and The antichrist. Again, This is just a theory, but I use it as an example that our assumption about the nature of the two witnesses might lead us astray when other prophetic truths are revealed.
hopeful… maybe you need to go back and read the chapter again? How do you get around that they are taken to heaven (Rev. 11:12) rather than thrown in the lake of fire as the AC and FP?
The two witnesses DO ascend to heaven. This is true. Is this to ascend to heaven and dwell amongst God for ever more or is this allegorical where they are taken skyward into the “heavenlies” by our coming space brothers.
You could see the danger in mistaking one for the other. They would be beyond reproach if they became the false prophet and antichrist, by an in dwelling of an evil spirit. This would of course earn them their ultimate destiny of the pit of fire.
Like I said, its a theory, and I don’t present it as anything else but.
@ jaz
Evidence is all over the place as you do your research, it will become more than obvious. Interestingly, the Holy Spirit will point them out to you, like i said it will appear as thorns. As far as wycliffe as the source to the kjv, it doesn’t really matter. What matters is who was this individual, was he a true follower of Jesus infused with the Holy Spirit or just another learned scholar from another masonic order that funds and controls a religiously focused institution.
@ cris
Throwing large numbers on how many scholars scrutinized translations and original works in the last 2000 years does not help much when we know that the prince of this world is satan, and for much longer than just two millenia. What this means is that he is in charge of the conspiracy particularly on the level of the intellect as Hopeful pointed out and that we need to overcome this just like Jesus taught. So ask yourself are these numerous scholars truly inspired by the Holy Spirit or are they just learned linguists and semantic shufflers, my bet and research points to the latter.
Now take for example that you think that “the protocols of learned elders of zion” are a forgery which you stated in the past. In that, how are you ever going to understand that the conspiracy is much bigger than the protocols of modern time and goes back to the garden of eden and probably even prior to that. Keep in mind that satan’s army of devious demons operate on a supernatural level and easily deceive learned freemasonic mortals and the rest are an even easier prey unless their eyes are open by the Holy Spirit. If you do not believe in this conspiracy since the beginning of time then you do not truly believe in Jesus Christ as he exposed it in the Book of Revelations.
owl – the problem with your conspiracy is that you have no evidence for it and you really don’t care about evidence you just chose to believe it no matter what. Anyone that has done even a modest amount of study can see through it. It’s based on ignorance and guess work and it is unfalsifiable – it is not capable of being proved false. No matter what evidence is presented you explain it away as part of the conspiracy.
Hopeful_watcher; concerning the Two Witnesses. I have thoroughly studied this. If I may share Just a small portion. I am aware that it is not along the lines of popular theology!
These two I believe to be symbolic of the end-Time Church upon the earth composed of the Jewish & gentile remnant. For they are also the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth Rev11:4
Zech4:11-14 shows that God’s witnesses of all generations have always been empowered for their ministry by The Holy Spirit as typified by the continuous flow of the “Golden oil”through the Golden Pipes Vs12
The number Two, like other numbers is the book of Revelation is symbolic, It is the number of divine sufficiency in testimony. Deut17:6 Mat18:16
Jesus always sent forth His disciples By Two together, and in earlier times there were Moses and Aaron, Joshua and Caleb, Zerubbabel and Joshua, haggai and Zechsriah. Paul also on his journeys had with him Barnabas, Silas, Timothy.
The two witnesses then are ‘ideal persons’ having the characteristics of Moses and Elijah.
The text does not say that they are Moses and Elijah. But rather that they have Like the latter special power given them with special reference to the need of the time Rev11:6
These Two witnesses of the End-Time are clothed in sackcloth. Here again, ‘sackcloth’ typify the humility of the end-time remnant. These will not be clad in ecclesiastical regalia, they will not be of high rank and title among men, but of lowly status like Christ’s first witnesses.
Their testimony will not be of progress and world-betterment, nor of peace and safety, nor of anything that the world loves to hear.. and as such this results in anguish torment and hatred of the testifiers.
They testify to death and Judgment, of the Day of wrath and perdition of ungodly men and of the coming of the rejected Lord in flaming Fire 1Thes1:7,8,9
As to the killing of the Two witnesses. Again this is symbolical language expressing what I believe we are presently seeing coming to pass. (The suppression of the testimony of the Gospel by the beastly governmental powers fully in the hands of Satan) persecution and Martyrdom is here implied.
The scene of this killing is “the street of the great city which is spiritually called Sodom and egypt where our Lord was crucified” Rev11:8
Sodom and Egypt typifies the former moral corruptions and of the spiritual darkness of the world. indeed, is this not also presently a reality.
The words “where our lord was crucified” signify that the Guilt of His crucifixion is to be laid upon all those in the whole world who have rejected the mercy of the cross of Christ.
The resurrection of the witnesses by the loud voice from heaven saying to them “come up here” Rev11:12 is the rapture of the church Just prior to the sounding of the seventh Trump which issues in the Judgment of the dead and the Rewarding of the prophets, saints Rev11:18
Regarding the two witnesses, please consider that the descriptions in Revelation match up well with the descriptions of Joshua and Zerubbabel in the OT…..something to consider.
As for the KJV sacred cow….if one utilizes even the most basic of interlinear Hebrew and Greek study guides, it is quite apparent that the KJV is not perfect. There is much freedom to be gained in acknowledging this fact, opening the door to a more thorough understanding of what the Bible really says. There is no perfect modern translation but, as Cris said, there are certainly better translations available to us than the KJV. It is up to each individual to: Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
In studying, humility is a very important key. We must be willing to let go of preconceived notions and long standing traditions. Diligence and patience are required if advancement to our understanding of the text is to be gained. I am preaching at myself, here, as I spent too many years trapped in denominational thinking even when, deep down inside, I knew there were better answers than the ones I was being given by so called teachers. It really is all about rightly handling the word of truth!
Cris, the problem in your conclusion is that this is not my conspiracy but a biblical FACT that Jesus exposed in John 8:44 while addressing the pharisees. So unless you think Jesus was pushing a conspiracy based on ignorance and guesswork like you accused myself, your response is a typical attempt in avoiding a core issue since the beginning of time.
Regarding evidence, where is your evidence that the protocols are a forgery that is not based on a typical politically charged rant blaming the opposing group like in this case a zionist blaming the jesuits or a nazi sympathizer blaming the jews? We know they are two sides of the same coin like republicans/democrats so taking sides would be a weak & half-baked argument. And does it really matter who wrote them when even a six year old who can read can see that every protocol has been engineered into modern society?
To judge them by their fruits should be your greatest evidence meter if your eyes are cleared of agendas & rigid yet faulty belief frameworks.
Jesus did not address the text of the NT and translation issues in John 8:44. The conspiracy you proposed is based only on ignorance. If you took any time at to understand how scholars determine the best readings from the old manuscripts it would become obvious that what you proposed is impossible.
They were plagiarized from other fictional works – it easy to see when compared- most everyone knows this except antisemitic conspiracy theorists and radical Muslims. Even a trivial amount of effort would have told you this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#Literary_forgery
The definition of conspiracy ” To Plan together in secret” Wow! that never happens does it ?
There is no such thing as secret societies.. Naaa… it is all my warped imagination…. I suppose that Money is neither real…
You are clearly spinning my argument Cris to fit whatever yours is. There is no translation issues in John 8:44, it is as clear as day that it is a satanic conspiracy. If you cannot see that or refuse to for whatever reason, there is no point in further arguments. However, i for one would love to see a blog post from you on the synagogue of satan for example, that is if you have the courage to lay your views where it really matters.
As far as your wikipedia source on the protocols come on you could have at least tried to do better than that even though i’ve seen all contra-arguments and they all fail. We know theosophists control wikipedia and whose tunes that play on these particular issues.
Speaking of sacred cows, the nation of Israel is definitely one.
Satan is great at making certain things beyond reproach so that any accussation will earn you only pain and sufferering. Mother Mary is another sacred cow beyond reproach so you can bet the farm she will be a big player too.
You have heard the phrase follow the money? Here is another one. Suspect the untouchables.
Jesus called out a lot of Jews calling the synagogue a den of thieves. I don’t think anyone would accuse him of being anti Semitic
Please excuse my lack of internet savvy in placing quotes from works sited. I look forward to your response.
Greg C
Cutting pasting entire pages from a KJVonlyist website is not a comment but rather plagiarism. If you want to argue against the information in the post you are commenting on, then you need to address the specific points of Hebrew grammar. Can you offer a meaningful refutation of the post?
very nice job. I like how you attacked the root of the KJV only argument with good exegetical analysis. very well done.