Russ “Pappy” Houck
Unfortunately, Rob Skiba has fallen under the false teaching of a cultic pseudo-scholar named Russ “Pappy” Houck. Houck has written a book entitled: EPIDEMIC: Examining the Infected Roots of Judaism and Christianity that appears to be the source of Rob’s theological errors. Rob has promoted Houck on his radio show and says that Houck “changed his life.” This is most unfortunate for Mr. Skiba. Please do pray for him. One can go to Amazon.com and browse through the book here. On page 356, I was able to locate the probable impetus of Skiba’s Trinitarian heresy – denying the personhood of the Holy Spirit.
Houck, Epidemic, page 356
Houck demies the trinity explicitly and thoroughly. On page 382, he argues that Jesus, “was never co-equal with the Father, YHWH, and is not part of Trinity godhead.” Rob Skiba’s main argument against the person of the Holy Spirit also comes from this book. Houck writes, “I realized that if there are three persons, as taught in Triniatrianism, then Yeshua (Jesus) is not the son of the Father, but the son of the Holy Spirit.”[2] Of course, I previously refuted that misunderstanding here. The book is full of similar misinformation. Houck writes, “I discovered that, …in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost… (Mat. 28:19) was not in any of the early manuscripts.”[3] Houck falsely claims that Constantine added the Trinitarian formula to Matthew 28. This is simply not true because all extant manuscripts contain the phrase “baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Not a single textual variant is listed in the critical Greek New Testament:
19 πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος, [4]
It’s not missing from any manuscript. This is more than shoddy research…
Furthermore, early citations from the Church Fathers bear this out:
Ignatius lived in the first century, the time of apostles. The second chapter of his “Epistle to the Philippians” reads “He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”[5]
Tertullian, (c. 200 AD) a century before Constantine, writes in On Baptism, “sealed in (the name of) the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,”[6]
Thus, Houck’s claims are patently false. It leads one to seriously question his claimed academic credentials. A real scholar would not make such obvious blunders. Unfortunately, it only gets worse.
Apparently, Mr. Houck sacrifices a lamb every Passover. This makes the Roman Catholic repeated Eucharistic sacrifice almost seem sound… well almost. For the record, I have written strongly against the mass as a sacrifice here. It is not my desire to misrepresent what Skiba and Houck believe. I am aware that they believe this as an act of remembering Jesus sacrifice for their sins, incidentally the same excuse the Roman Catholics use for parsing the Eucharist as a sacrifice. It’s not the remembrance that is troublesome, it is that Houck implies it is a requirement. Houck really seems to think he is bound to kill a animal on passover. Perhaps, someone can enlighten us as to just why this is required? At the 1:26:00 mark forward in the video below, Skiba and Houck discuss the annual Passover sacrifice on Houck’s Texas ranch.
Skiba: As the one who facilitates that in your home, what is that like? And how does that help you, first of all understand the Father’s heart but secondly how does that help you not even to want to sin anymore?
Houck : Well that’s the words I used to you, it makes you not want to sin anymore. It’s the hardest thing I’ve ever done. Every year, it’s the hardest thing we’ve ever done. I’m not a hunter. I’m not a fisherman. I don’t enjoy killing anything either and never have. I live out on a ranch so I have to kill varmits and I get no pleasure in even killing varmits. It is not about pleasure at all, it’s about obeying a commandment[7]and I can tell you that when I take that knife and cut the throat of the lamb, um, it is eh… I have worked hard to try and figure a way to get out of this, ok? Don’t let anybody kid you, the first time you do it, it is a mind boggling experience and I’m not trying to be funny. I’m being honest, it is absolutely… you sit there and you go… you can’t believe what you do and you can’t believe the reaction. And if you choose a sheep verses a goat cause it says you can do either, the little sheep will just stand there and do nothing. I mean there’s no resistance, there’s no fight, there’s no nothing… and you literally go into a spiritual place, that again, when you finish you know why Constantine wanted to take it away from us. Because it gives you the understanding, a spiritual precept, and here’s a statement that I have made many times, you can talk about well, did the Jews kill Jesus? Did the Romans kill Jesus? Who killed Jesus? Right? The fact is I killed Jesus, ok?, my sin. He said he dies for my sin. That means he had to die, his blood was spilled for me. And when I kill that lamb, I reiterate the fact that his blood was spilt for me. [8]
The above text was transcribed from time mark 1:27:30 – 1:29:59. I transcribed more than was necessary in order to fairly represent the context of what he was saying. I allow that Houck ostensibly claims to believe that Jesus died for his sins. But what does he mean by saying it is commanded that he do this? And that he has tried to find a way out of it but that is not an option? Nothing in New Testament remotely implies New Covenant believers are to sacrifice animals, in fact, the exact opposite is clearly taught.
The book of Hebrews makes it clear that the sacrificial system was done away with at the cross.
“And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” (Heb 10:11–14)
If you have any doubts about this, please study Hebrews chapters nine and ten. Like with the Baptismal formula, Houck also claims the Constantine was the one who removed the practice of animal sacrifice. That is utter nonsense, divorced from any semblance of historical reality. The New Testament alone abolished the practice of animal sacrifice. Christians no longer have to offer animal sacrifices and keep other ceremonial parts of the OT laws, they are abolished: “He does away with the first in order to establish the second.” (Heb 10:9) In order to establish the second means the old covenant was abolished in light of the new. “In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” (Heb 8:13) The sacrifices were abolished in order for God’s moral and spiritual will to be done. Constantine had nothing to do with it. Houck is dangerously mistaken.
In the book of Acts, the early church met to decide if gentile Christians were bound to keep the law. James stood up and said:
“Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.” (Ac 15:19–20)
Paul also makes this clear in passages like: “For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.” (Ro 8:2) Even worse for Houck, when the Galatian Judaizers attempted to add circumcision to the Gospel, Paul replied, “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” (Ga 5:4) If merely adding the requirement of circumcision to the Gospel results in being “severed form Christ,” I shudder to imagine what the requirement of animal sacrifice might entail.
[1] Russ Houck., Epidemic Examining the Infected Roots of Judaism and Christianity: How Do We Find God with All This Mess? (volume 1) (Corsicana, TX: Negev Publishing, 2012), 365.
[2] Houck, Epidemic, 354.
[3] Houck, Epidemic, 354.
[4] Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, Carlo M. Martini et al., The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (With Apparatus) (2000; 2006), Mt 28:19. Also see: http://www.tektonics.org/lp/matt2819.html
[5] Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians Chapter II.—Unity of the three divine persons. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.xvii.ii.html
[6] Tertullian, On Baptism Chapter VI.—The Angel the Forerunner of the Holy Spirit. Meaning Contained in the Baptismal Formula. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.vi.iii.vi.html
[7] What commandment requires animal sacrifice for New Covenant Christians?
[8] “Epidemic: Exploring The Infected Roots of Judaism and Christianity – Dr. Russ “Pappy” Houk” Revolution Radio Projecy with Rob Skiba http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5BpJdCK9yc 1:27:30 – 1:29:59
About Cris Putnam
Hey Cris… I have his book and actually read it. He does make it seem like he has a good case against the trinity and specifically the holy spirit…but they are akin to the JW teachings.
For example, he uses Phil. 2:5-6 and states quote:
“A better translation, the correct one, would have been similar to God or like God rather than equal with God. Again, it appears that our Trinitarian translators were helping us ‘understand’ the Trinity.” (page 368)
Then a comment on 1 John 5:7 he states:
In the original text, the three witnesses were…’the Spirit, the water and the blood.’ The phrase from 1 John 5:7…’The Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” was added by a scribe. Named after Jerome, the translator who produced the Vulgate (Latin) version of the Bible, this phrase became known as the Jerome Comma, and does not exist in any of the manuscripts, even the edited ones. Theologians who know of the addition usually say nothing about it. Apparently they are willing to allow forgeries of this kind into translations if they support their doctrines. Anyone else doing such a thing would be called a heretic.” (page 368-369)
He does not cite where he got this info. Can you substantiate it or debunk it? It seems like he just heard it somewhere and ran with it instead of citing his source…BTW, even after reading it, I didn’t buy it…not enough citations and references for my taste.
Gonz
Hey Gonz,
I appreciate your comment. This is a very woodenly literal translation:
“ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ,(Php 2:6, NA27)
“who in the form of God existed, did not something to be grasped consider being equal with God”
He’s wrong as expected equal is the best rendering:
He is correct about 1 John 5:7 and this is one the points I debate with the KJVonly crowd. Modern translations have the correct reading. “For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.(1 Jn 5:7–8, NASB) So that is old news and the only people who fight it are the KJVonly crowd.
If you are willing to send me your copy. I would love to take it apart fact by misleading fact.
concerning Php2:6-8 (“ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ,(Php 2:6, NA27)
According to Vine’s NT expository, The words “Form of God” Greek “morphe Theou” is therefore properly the ‘nature or essence’, not in the abstract, but as actually subsisting in the individual………,
The true meaning of “morphe” in the expression used by the Apostle “form of God” is confirmed by it’s recurrence in the corresponding phrase “form of a servant” Php2:7
The two phrases are directly antithetical and that the word “form” must therefore have the same sense in both.
There is nothing in the Greek context that makes reference to ‘personages’ when V6 and vs7 are taken contextually. It is indicative of The nature of God and the nature of the servant.
Why, jaz, what’s this? A linguisticargument? I’m impressed!
But haven’t you heard? Don’t you know that “linguistic technicalities… don’t really matter”, and that “you don’t compare words written on paper cause they are just words”? That’s what your fellow heretic owl says.
Don’t tell me there’s dissension in the ranks!
Your argument regarding the word for “form” is irrelevant, anyway, as the word in question was “equal”, not “form”.
But of course, as you said these are “all theological concepts”, and “all believing theirs to be the Truth”, nobody’s (including yours) can be called superior. Right?
Isn’t that how it works in Heresyland?
The fact is I have studied many theologies SO what!
You do not comprehend the truth i have been putting forth. You are the one who is judgmental Not me.
By the way, to continue with the ‘name calling’ of others may Upset The real Judge. Be careful! Lest I plea my cause before Him.
The more humble position for you would be to acknowledge the possibility of what I say and that God’s Spirit is not confined in your particular Theological Box.
jaz – his question had nothing do with persons in that passage, so I don’t see any relevance to your point. But as to form you are incorrect.
Really? I have lost all respect for you and your teachings. The recent articles I have seen from you are not teaching articles, they are articles casting slander and judgement on anyone who has an opinion that differs from yours. Ministers of God should provide teaching that is uplifting and encouraging, but it seems you are on a personal crusade to discredit all other Biblical scholars or students. I’m reminded of some very powerful words in the Bible:
Matthew 7:1-3
7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?”
There is only One who has been appointed worthy to judge and that is Jesus:
John 5:22
“The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,”
As I am sure you are quite aware, we are living in the last days and the time is short. I would think this time would be better spent teaching rather than slandering and labeling people as heretics. We’ve already been through that scenario during the Protestant Reformation!
I will certainly keep you in my prayers and hope you can reflect on this to use your position to teach rather than slander.
Blessings~Phoebe
But Phoebe, what do you do with this Scripture?
“Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment” Jn 7:24
The Greek word translated “judge” is the same in the Matthew passage you quoted and the verse I quoted.
You’ve brought up a common (these days) error regarding “judging”. The “judgment” that the Lord forbids in the passages you quoted is referring to condemnatory judgment, aka: condemnation. This is evident from the context. We are not to condemn others because even Jesus did not come into the world to condemn, but to save.
But that doesn’t mean we are not to judge anything at all. We are expected to judge spiritual fruit, deeds, and especially doctrines.
See the difference?
“
Your judgment Chuckles includes condemnation That is what Phoebe is saying
You make yourself God-like! you assume to know The heart of those you call heretic.. you expect conformity to your doctrine. Woe to any who see otherwise.
No one has denied the deity Of Jesus or the Holy Spirit. If that was the case then It would be heresy.
Jaz, you keep “projecting”. I condemned no one. I judged righteously their (and your) doctrines by comparing them to the word of God. I have said more than once that I don’t claim to know what is in their (or your) hearts. It is by theirdoctrines—as stated in their own words–that I have rebuked them (and you).
Let me cite an example of true condemnatory judgement that is clear. Ironically, you have provided it yourself:
“You make yourself God-like!… you expect conformity to your doctrine. Woe to any who see otherwise.”
Now that is a prime example of a claim to see into the heart of another. I see the “log vs. splinter” thing is still operative in your neighborhood. For the record, what I hope for (though I expect it less and less the more you post) is that you and others arguing for heresy will come to the knowledge of the Truth, and so be saved from your heresies.
“No one has denied the deity Of Jesus or the Holy Spirit.”
Uh, wrong, once again. You and others have denied the person-hood of the Holy Spirit, which is tantamount to denying His deity. A non-person cannot be God. The many references posted by Cris P. demonstrate that. (I see you’re still avoiding those.)
“If that was the case then It would be heresy.”
It is the case, so it is heresy, by your own words.
Ephesians 5:11 (NASB)
11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;
BDavis – That verse is applicable, I’m afraid it has become clear that this is a clear-cut case of “Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?”(2 Co 6:14)
Phobebe
The trinity is not a negotiable doctrine, denying it is blasphemy. I don’t think you understand what the word slander means. Everything I have written is 100% truthful, it is not slander.
“He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.(Tt 1:9)
When someone is teaching against the trinity the only conclusion is that they do not worship the triune God who exists but the false god of the cults. “The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.”(1 Co 2:14–15)
This rebuke leaves a bad taste in my mouth, as well. I believe these men are sincerely seeking YHVH and the truth and the accusations are a bit rough, to say the least. I can’t find the word trinity in the scriptures, either. I am suspicious of some of the Greek translations, especially the Septuagint and the so-called church “fathers”, as well. There are lies that have been handed down and Constantine did everything he could to negate the Hebrew followers of Moshia. Though I am not at all inclined to sacrifice a lamb on Passover, I do celebrate the Sabbath on the 7th day, the Passover and all of the same feasts that Yeshua, His family and His followers did and it should not be a problem for those that want to cancel the Covenants of Torah and replace everything the Father of Lights established through His Son…these are holy convocations and Yeshua came to fulfill every dot and tittle…not to do away with…in the Spirit…not in the flesh! After all, is there not SAFETY in a number of counselors? There are NO mere humans that have everything 100% right and therefore we need to keep things in perspective. Balance please! Sheep should not be ripping apart other sheep when there are plenty of wolves and lions willing to devour those that are more right than others but all children of the Most High Melech Ha Kavod!
RJ – Really lame: “I can’t find the trinity word in the Bible” is not an argument against it. It is completely scriptural and everyone who cares about theology knows it. If you doubt it, you are in perilous condition yourself. This is not a minor disagreement. Rob is in open rebellion against God. Until he repents of teaching heresy, he falls in the same category as any other non-Christian cult member. I sincerely hope he repents. This is not an ego battle – its about truth.
I was once a big Skiba follower and enjoyed his videos, especially from the “Future Congress” series. But as I continued to find his videos on YT, I was dismayed to hear his denial of the clear voice of Hebrews and other NT writings concerning our freedom in Christ. I really can’t conceive of how he came under this control of the heresy you’ve presented. He is a perfect example of having a rare gift of knowledge but losing his grip on scriptural fact, perhaps thru arrogance or boredom. He is a full-bore Judaizer and law-giver and will repel any unbeliever who might otherwise be drawn to the simple Gospel. How much clearer did Paul need to be about these people?
Now I see he’s a literal FLAT-EARTHER!! He has completely lost it. Now animal sacrifices are the missing element in our worship!!
I can no longer listen to his teachings on any level as the Source of those teachings has become completely corrupted. I grieve for his deception and pray he wakes up before he’s judged.
Cris
Reading the following quote from Pete below it would appear the HRM movement IS the one also known as the “Messianic Movement” in general … and as yet I don’t know what the HR means … assuming messianic means M.
As already posted in an earlier response to responses already being generated I have raised the OVERALL matter of the “quietly disordered Trinity” being primarily touted as the MAJOR degradation/ threshing OF the Trinity … this has enabled Jezebel to operate freely in the current church culture. No order, no questions.
And whilst ironically the matter of the circumcision group of Galations invoked witchcraft in Paul’s mind … which is DIRECTLY connected with seducing of Gentiles to depend on law before grace … it certainly bears down heavily on Trinitarian matters. But are they the cause … or the consequence of negligence of Trinitarian doctrine one way or the other? As you are aware many believe it is unfair and unkind … or out of proportion to lay this at Rob Skiba’s feet?
And that being a partner with Tom Horn and the recent notoriety has elevated both of you onto the public stage which might also aid in the perception you are the bully here … and Rob Skiba the victim. And yes it is “schtick” … and whilst I haven’t read the further response too carefully … and haven’t watched the video narrative … the problem MIGHT be this wasn’t settled in peoples minds more broadly that this really was what WAS happening BEFORE the theological appendums were posted.
Given the sheer destruction which has taken place in the conservative evangelical church in recent years has LARGELY been due to the direct attack against an ORDERED TRINITY … I agree the temptation is to belittle the Messianic movement because they haven’t appeared to be the major attack agents … but it seems to me they are a more recent movement.
I will endeavour to watch the video … but this is my question:
IF you discover Rob was NOT playing the role of a teacher, WAS simply asking questions … perhaps fell in with some dubious characters like the one above (assuming he is what is suggested prima facie) … ARE you able to roll back the balance and re check the weight of your remarks on the intentionality of his “asking questions” ?
Manipulation is manipulation, schtick is schtick … but IF he is NOT quite as individually guilty … are you able to … or prepared to roll it back?
From my angle I saw Rob Skiba at Future Congress 2011/10 on the DVD set … and he certainly doesn’t come across with great guile. From an online or Facebook perspective the ones doing great harm are the groups and not so much the individuals.
I accept attacking the personhood of the Holy Spirit is a nice trick to undo the Trinity … but the question about public rejection and making someone lose face is not done lightly.
The one problem churches have with Matthew 18 procedure is often the public humiliation comes before the evidence … but the evidence is presented ONLY after … and in such an off hand manner … and not by agreement of protocol. Meaning the establishment of a matter never actually occurred before the condemnation became official.
Given the “End Times Research Community” requires a level of fidelity I accept perhaps there is urgency in this matter … but is this the chosen pathway … formulae … precedent. Because if it is a little overcooked, I would want to see the ability to re centre the balance … a level of flexibility regarding erring for others as well in the future.
CC.
Christo, the HRM does not stand for Messianics, it stands for Hebrew Roots Movement. The primary difference being that Messianics, are real Jews. HRM are Gentiles trying to become Jewish by taking up the Torah teachings as having predominance over the New Testament teachings. The Messianic movement began during the time of Christ. HRM began with Herbert Armstrong and the British Israelism in the mid 20th century. True Messianics, recognize that the Law doesn’t save them, nor does it trump anything that Paul taught or what is found in the NT. HRM miscontrue Paul’s teachings, reinterpret NT text to make things sound like they want it to sound…which goes back into the denial of the Tri-Une nature of God. All wordsmithing aside, Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as a He, as does Paul. He and It are two separate and completely different things.
Pete, Are you sure about the link between Herbert Armstrong and the HRM?
I was under the impression HRM/ Messianic Movement were synonyms.
British Israelism obviously played its part pre 1947 … which probably requires a good understanding of these groups?
Messianic Christians know there is a line, but the groups which cross it, dance on it and pretend nothing is wrong IS the problem here.
Obviously confusion is meant by some for the advantage it gives them over the uninitiated … which is a public matter … not something which can be hidden justifiably.
Jeremiah 48:10 clearly says a curse is on anyone wrongfully withholding the sword. Eli on one hand, a curse if you don’t on the other.
RE: After reading response from “Sharon Odehnal”
Obviously given Rob’s response which I would surmise as “extreme defensiveness”, many are characterising you as cruel.
I know it is not that easy, and slipping up into Trinitarian heresy doesn’t happen easily but rather through conscious decision making about the Scriptures unsaying things otherwise clearly said.
Is Rob Skiba THE FIRST person you’ve OR ANYONE has confronted publicly who has taken part in Future Congress … or the End Times Research Community (if that is an agreed term) ? If I am not mistaken it hasn’t happened before.
Is this something you want to do … or should be expected in future regarding others … potentially involved?
Thanks Cris, for continuing to shine a light on what had been a subtle, backdoor inroad into evangelical Christianity. For them, it starts off small. Worshipping on Sabbath, then it is changing the name of Jesus to Yeshua, Yahashua, Yahshua, etc, then it’s the Torah over NT, then their attempt to discredit anything Paul wrote, and on & on. We are all sinners. we all have faults, flaws, and trappings. But seemingly, the only goal HRM seeks is to seduce Christians away from orthodox Christianity back under the blinding of the veil.
This is very true also of most Messianic’s, specifically when they sever the Body of Christ to reflect Race jewish and gentile. And then there is this arrogance giving prominence to themselves over gentile believers.
As far as I am concerned it is just the Law cloaked with a foreign Jesus.
There is one Body and one Spirit Eph4:4,5
Hi Cris,
Thanks for calling this to our attention. It is disturbing. Even if one did not have a grasp of the Church Fathers and the Greek New Testament, there is an ignorance of English at work as well.
The term Holy Ghost is used in older English because “ghost” was more of an all-inclusive word for the spirit. In our time it only has the connotation of the disembodied spirit of a deceased person, but this was not always the case. It’s common in the KJV to see ghost in the expression, “gave up the ghost.”
So, being upset at the “horrible” translation of ruach or pneuma as “ghost” shows an unfortunate misunderstanding of English literature.
Again, it’s disturbing to see the inroads which false Hebrew Roots people are making. There is a real way to honor the natural tree and branches, but this kind of teaching always seems to lead people away from the Triune Godhead and the wonderful exclusivity of the Cross of Christ.
Cris,
I have been quietly watching this from a distance now for awhile and I have to say I find it all very disturbing. I do not care much for the way either of you acted towards each other on FB. Where was the love of Christ to shine forth as an example and light to the unsaved world? People from the New Age for instance would look at those conversations and say I want no part of any of that! Likewise, all of these “articles” pointing your finger and finding fault with as many details as you can regarding Rob and his beliefs are also disturbing to say the least.
I just listened to the show of Rob’s that you have posted with Dr. Russ “Pappy” Houck and he DOES NOT do this killing of the lamb as a “sacrifice”, but rather as a MEMORIAL as stated by GOD HIMSELF in Exodus…to be done FOREVER! Just as God states His feasts are to be done FOREVER! No difference. He is NOT replacing what Jesus did on the cross, he is not doing it to acquire forgiveness of sins as they did originally in sacrifices. He is doing it as part of the Passover FEAST. Have you even listened to the show you posted?
Okay we all get that you disagree with Rob’s stance of the Holy Spirit/Trinity issue…but now you are nipping at his heels like a rabid poodle. He is far from being a heretic, he is HUMAN BEING and as such he makes mistakes and GOD WILL correct him. I know, I have been corrected many times by the Father. But he is trying and most of his info is very correct and interesting food for thought at the very least.
You have spoken TO him, not nicely but you did do that. You have pointed out the Holy Spirit/Trinity error to “the church”…now let it be. Put it in Yah’s hands and move on.
What I am seeing at this point is you sowing discord amongst the family of Yah and that is not a good thing at all!
Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV
There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
Sharon, I acknowledged he said did it as a memorial. If you don’t bother to actually read what I am saying I don’t know how to communicate with you. He also said it was commanded that he had do it and I asked why? and explained why NO one Jew or Gentile is under any command to kill animals anymore according to the book of Hebrews. Did you even read it? This is not a trivial matter this Pappy Houck is a dangerous cult leader in the making.
I read enough of his book that I have no doubt. Run! He has deeply deceived Skiba. If you actually read my post I expose where he is telling lies, not just mistakes, he is intentionally lying about Matthew 28. The man is a fraud too, his Doctorate is from a fake school.
Study Hebrews 8 – 10: no one is commanded to slaughter sheep today that is absurd!
My main beef with Rob is the trinitarian heresy. It’s not a minor disagreement. He is apostate. Rob has written that the trinity is a heresy, that is blasphemy. Rob’s god is a false god.
Honestly I do not know if Mr. Houck actually has a Doctorate or not, I never heard of him prior to this. I am saying that what he is practicing, as far as the Passover lamb is concerned, is no more harmful that a pig roast. Actually less harmful IF you follow Yah’s instructions on food. He is merely preparing a lamb the way that Yah instructs AND I can see where he gets that it is something we are to do forever!
Exd 12:14: And this day shall be unto you for a MEMORIAL; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD THROUGHOUT YOUR GENERATIONS.; YE SHALL KEEP IT AS A FEAST BY AN ORDINANCE FOREVER.
I think God made that pretty clear. I am not all for killing cute little lambs…but this is what it says. When Yah says FOREVER I believe He means FOREVER!
When I was speaking of mistakes and being human I was speaking of Rob…though Mr. Houck is also human as well and I still feel we can all make mistakes. I am not standing up for him as I am unfamiliar with him.
While you you did begrudgingly acknowledge that they were doing this as a memorial you also stated: “Apparently, Mr. Houck sacrifices a lamb every Passover. This makes the Roman Catholic repeated Eucharistic sacrifice almost seem sound… well almost.” You continue to call it a sacrifice and you compare it to the Catholic sacrifice of their mass and Eucharist which continually keeps Christ on the cross which makes the statement that His one time sacrifice was NOT enough. You are talking out of two sides of your mouth. Are you calling it a sacrifice or a memorial, Mr. Putnam, because they are two very different events. You point me to Hebrews…but again I state that is speaking of SACRIFICES and NOT MEMORIALS!
Once again I will reiterate that disagreeing is fine, correction is fine as long as these are done with the love of Christ. Honestly, I don’t feel very much love on here at all and that is sad because you could be a great example minus the name calling and arrogance regarding formal education.
Sharon, I could not agree with you more. Bravo!
“What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?”(2 Co 6:15)
Sharon; Correct me if I am wrong; But the passover Feast has been super-seated with the Lord’s supper which we are commanded to do in remembrance of Calvary’s sacrifice unto The return of Jesus 1Cor11:27
The Apostles saw to it, the early church practiced it. Nowhere are we told by the Apostles to revert back to keeping the Feasts of the OT.
The issue here is that these ‘Jewish christians’ and others believe that when Jesus returns He will once again set up the Levitical sacrificial system So, in their thinking to sacrifice an animal presently cannot be wrong. But it is wrong and an affront to God’s perfect sacrifice by which He established the ‘Eternal Covenant’ Heb8:8-12
Cris; you have disturbed the Messianic hive. So be it!
I believe you are wrong the feasts were not superseded. Again as I stated to Mr. Putnam, Yah said FOREVER! We eat the Lords supper drinking wine and eating the wafer/cracker whatever BUT we still have to eat a main course and we were told specifically how to do that.
Nowhere are we told NOT to keep the feasts either and because Yah had already set those in place and they were practiced as the norm IF they had wanted those stopped they would have commanded that but they did not. Quite the opposite we see the apostles GOING to the feasts and keeping them. We saw JESUS going to the feasts and keeping them!
“The issue here is that these ‘Jewish christians’ and others believe that when Jesus returns He will once again set up the Levitical sacrificial system” Well I am not Jewish and I am not sure what a Jewish Christian is, but I do suppose you could call me Messianic. However once again I will reiterate…he did NOT do it as a “Levitical sacrificial system”, he did it as a MEMORIAL which Yah clearly states for us to do FOR ALL GENERATIONS! Now unless you think God is senile and has forgotten that He said that and we need to correct Him…I cannot see any other reason you would have to do otherwise!
Exd 12:14: And this day shall be unto you for a MEMORIAL; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD THROUGHOUT YOUR GENERATIONS.; YE SHALL KEEP IT AS A FEAST BY AN ORDINANCE FOREVER.
I am guessing that I am speaking to a group here who also believes once saved always saved as well.
The NT sacrifice of Jesus replaced the OT animal sacrifices and it is That sacrifice alone which is the Christian’s memorial. It is logical that any remembrance should apply to that which enables God to remember their sins no more Heb8:12 and not to the shadows of the old that has been rendered obsolete Heb8:13
Our memorial is to the mediator of the New Covenant Heb12:24
As to Jesus keeping the feasts! yes He did, because “He was born under the Law” Gal4:4
Things took a turn about at Pentecost with the preaching of the Gospel and Baptism for the remission of sins Acts2:38. and the circumcision of the heart.
As Christians we are not to live in the Doom and Gloom of Sinai but in the light of Mt Zion Heb12:22
Amen Lou!
I find it interesting that you would bring up Ex. 12:14 as an argument for keeping a feast as a memorial forever. That ordinance was to be between the Sons of Israel and the Lord. Just as in Ex.31:16 So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’ 17 It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.” This is a covenant with Israel and not with anyone else.
It saddens me when people want to hold on to the law or parts of it. If you are going to keep the law, you must keep all the law and not just part of it. At that point you will be judged by the law and if you fail in even one point of the law then you fail in the whole thing. James 2:10 I sure don’t want to be judged by the law… I’ve eaten way too much bacon 🙂
The Father is God (Eph. 4:6). The Son is God (Heb. 1:8). And the Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). There is one God eternally manifest in three persons.
You may feel that Chris has not dealt with this problem in a loving manner, but this is a progression. Chris has simply written about the error and more error has crept in. Always when dealing with heresies, you state what the Bible says (apply truth) and when people keep trying to combat the truth with lies then you call it what it is.
Remember it was Jesus Himself who told the disciples when He sent them out to preach the gospel in MT 10:14 “Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.” Mark and Luke add “as a testimony against them.”
The problem here is that when men teach heresies, they must be confronted. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.
You can’t love anyone anymore than by correcting them with the Word of God.
Unfortunately in today’s politically correct environment, correction is mistaken for judging when it isn’t the same thing at all. If we know someone has cancer. we need to tell them so they can take corrective action. If they have a severe communicable disease and they won’t quarantine themselves, you have to start telling others so the disease won’t spread. Too many people will go to Hell because of false doctrines.
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1 People like Chris Putnam are trying to warn people to stay away from these false teachers.
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” 2 Peter 1-3 these teachings that Rob Skiba and Russ “Pappy” Houck are espousing are deny the very Master Himself.
It’s a sad thing that heresy has to be confronted in the first place but especially bad that there are people who mishandle the Word of God. It isn’t always an easy manner to deal with it gently but as James Spencer always says, “Love without truth is too soft. Truth without love is too hard.” That’s just the way it is.
In all I have read about this whole thread,I don’t see where Chris has been unloving, just factual.
Thank you Pete Bass! You “get it” and that’s a blessing. All of these postmodern Christians are burdening my soul. This is not a case of a disagreement, it is a clear-cut case of apostasy. I started with polite friendly debate and Rob dug in his heals in great hubris called the trinity a heresy. That is blasphemous and he left the realm of the Christian faith until he repents.
First of all, I said nothing in regards to Rob being corrected…but we are to correct with love not with name calling and an egotistical attitude. The correction has been done, the point of error is stated…so why do we have to continue with the multiple articles, finger pointing and name calling? You have warned him, you have warned the flock…end of story. Now give him over to God to deal with and drop it…that is my point on this issue.
As for the law…we are free of MANS laws and the Jews had and still have hundreds of them. We are NOT free of Gods laws. God says we are to obey HIS Sabbath and His feast days and that is what I shall do. So what do you propose? Sunday worship and rest? The pagan day to worship the sun god appointed by the Catholics who still chuckle that Christians are following their day? Easter instead of Passover…a fertility goddess and nice fertile egg laying bunnies everywhere? Christmas which has NOTHING to do with the birth of Jesus at all? I suppose you see these as “Jewish Holy days”. Did you guys forget that Jesus was a Jew?
So you say Jesus was under the law…lol. But He, Himself said He did NOT come to change the law but to UPHOLD the law! GODS LAW…NOT man’s. And what of the apostles keeping the sabbath and the feast days? I guess they were confused.
This is ridiculous…I’m done here.
God help you all to see the truth before Jesus returns.
Sharon, would you please show from scripture where the Apostles of the lord instruct or teach us to keep the Sabbaths and Feasts.
I acknowledge the Sabbath rest of God Heb4:9 to be our rest of Faith in Christ Jesus. Heb4:7
I do not uphold Sunday above any day. Rom14:5
We are to worship in Spirit and in Truth and not on days. It is not where and when, but [How] we worship God. This is an Holy Spirit inspired worship of the true circumcision Phil3:3
Jesus said He came to [fulfil] the Law Mat5:17
The law had to be fulfilled in order that Grace may abide……..Think about that, God cannot mix the Two!.
“For the law was given through Moses; Grace and Truth were realised (made real) through Jesus Christ Jn1:17 (Truth is that which is real before God) Christ crucified is the reality, not bulls, sheep and goats.
As water and oil cannot mix, neither can the Law and Grace. The Apostle warns of this mixture in Gal2:1,2 to be an accursed thing.
Nevertheless, Messianic’s not only ignore the Apostles words, But abhor Paul’s letter to the Galatians. Why? The answer is because it curses those who abide by this mixture of the Law with Grace.
@louthesaint,
How good of you to lump all Messianics together in one lump sum of your understanding. Just so that you are aware, I do not abhor Paul, any of the apostles or any of their work.
Again I say…Jesus said He came to UPHOLD the law and NOT to change one jot of it. That tells me He also meant AFTER He was finished with His great sacrifice for us on Earth.
The Feast Days of God speak of His complete plan of salvation for mankind. The Spring Feasts pointed to Jesus first coming and the fall Feasts point to His second coming! But you would have us ignore that second half of His plan.
Scripture:
1Cor 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth spoil the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore LET US KEEP THE FEAST, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Acts 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the DAY OF PENTECOST.
Acts 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means KEEP THIS FEAST that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
“Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ” (1 Cor. 11:1).
Hmmm, again I ask, did Jesus keep the feasts? You say He did so because He was under the law. I say He was the ONLY one of us in flesh NOT under any law! He did so as our perfect example to show us what to do. There is nothing in scripture by accident.
Sharon, concerning 1Cor5:6-8
Paul said to celebrate the feast with the [New Leaven] who is Christ our pass over 1Cor5:7
He even says that it is not a celebration with the old leaven 1cor5:8 referring to the OT Mosaic feast.
Paul is speaking [allegorically], this can be understood by what he says in Vs8 that this [new leaven] is Sincerity and Truth.
The Apostle is not [double minded] He does not teach as a command to observe as a memorial the Lord’s supper 1Cor11:23-27 and yet he observes The Mosaic feast.
That would be Hypocritical would it not?
The Apostle presence at certain [Mosaic feasts] was always for the opportunity to preach the Gospel.
You can readily see this happening when he gets to Jerusalem. Read Acts 21:17 onwards, Pay special attention to Vs21 because there we find the report that Paul taught all the Jews among the Gentiles to forsake Moses and their customs Acts21:21 I would say that the OT feasts are part of such customs.
He very often used the various synagogues to that effect Acts9:20 Acts13:5
“Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ” (1 Cor. 11:1).
This scripture has nothing to do with OT feast keeping, But concerns itself with being “all things to all men” for the sake of salvation as the preceding verse implies 1Cor10:33
“Therefore Paul can boldly assert Col2:16,17 That in a nutshell reveal The Apostles teaching on the matter.
@louthesaint,
Talk about taking liberties with Scripture…this about takes the cake! You just read into it whatever you want it to be rather than what it actually says. Its absurd. This whole article is absurd. I am done replying because its pointless, you just make things out to be the way you want them to be.
Just for the record: “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ” (1 Cor. 11:1). “This scripture has nothing to do with OT feast keeping…”
I was aware of that and was making the point: “Again I ask, did Jesus keep the feasts? You say He did so because He was under the law. I say He was the ONLY one of us in flesh NOT under any law! He did so as our perfect example to show us what to do. There is nothing in scripture by accident.”
Apparently you missed that point too.
I think I need to unsub this blog altogether.
God be with you all…
“Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.” (Col 2:16)
Paul was addressing the false teacher(s) in Colasse who were advocating a number of Jewish observances, arguing that they were essential for spiritual advancement.
“These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.”(Col 2:17)
The old covenant observances pointed to a future reality that was fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ (cf. Heb. 10:1). Hence, Christians are no longer under the Mosaic covenant (cf. Rom. 6:14–15; 7:1–6; 2 Cor. 3:4–18; Gal. 3:15–4:7). Christians are no longer obligated to observe OT dietary laws (“food and drink”) or festivals, holidays, and special days (“a festival … new moon … Sabbath,” Col. 2:16), for what these things foreshadowed has been fulfilled in Christ.
Hebrews 8-10 explains very clearly that Christ’s atoning death on the cross was the end of the law and it is now obsolete for everyone. “In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”(Heb 8:13)
There is nothing absurd Sharon, I am looking at the scriptures from the perspective of grace and the New Testament and you look at it from the perspective of the Law and the Old testament.
That is why we will never agree, For the Two don’t mix.
Blessings to you in the Name of Jesus.
RE: Feast Days, Sabbath and further comments of “Sharon Odehnal” regarding Rob Skiba
Obviously Sharon believes Rob is being bullied and at HandleBullying.Com perhaps I should be characterising a classic form of victim bullying in this matter.
Thus far Cris can be applauded for providing open and public gateways and pathways for transparency … and giving me and others like you the chance to publicly ask him if he is willing to back off publicly IF he decides this is “overcooked”. It’s possible it is overcooked … or maybe it’s not
Keep in mind, usually in churches, these things are simply announced and NO ONE knows what happened OR why … and no one learns a single thing … except maybe don’t tick off this person … or act like that.
At least that part is better.
Regarding the theological “tête à tête” and remember these showdowns occurred in Antioch and Peter was publicly humiliated over Judeo practice NUMBER ONE: circumcision. Correct me if there is an equal in tradition.
So the rhetorical question after this is this: IF circumcision cannot be enforced … how can Feast Days, food laws or any other consderably lesser requirement of “Moshe” be trumped up …. or if Paul trumped Peter to such an extent describing it in terms no less than witchcraft? How can we consider ourselves any less than Peter if we make the same mistakes today on matters far less than circumcision represented to Abrahamic covenant?
Regarding the Roman culture of Constantine and the corruption of Rome, the narratives regarding Constantine’s non conversion conversion … the question is whether this is simply “cheap shot city?”
Rome was filthy, no one disputes the filth. But it was ALSO considered the centre of the world … for quite some time. But Romans the book is quite clear the gospel is first for the Jew THEN the Gentile. And that is a matter of protocol … not doctrinal abandonment for appeasement’s sake.
The paradigm accepted regarding law and sabbath and requirements otherwise FORMERLY kept by Jews is one of love. In other words … don’t flaunt eating pig or exercising freedom “in their face” … just to show off.
Because even though it isn’t a sin, the sin is they think you are … when you’re not … but they think you are !!! It brings them down … and you for knowing you’re doing it in malice to the weaker brother.
THIS actually is where HandleBullying.Com might step in regarding the “bullying espionage” of those who thresh upon legitimate freedom of believers NOT done in malice … but otherwise reported as such.
Where some “play act” at being the weaker brother … when really they refuse to question their traditions may have little public merit.
Where believers with a weak conscience write themselves a blank check? So no Paul did not write them a blank check, and if they engage in spying … their consciences must be strengthened with the Word of God.
So the best case scenario for Judaizing is the weaker brother narrative … but it has a limited shelf life … and is probably ONLY for the recent convert.
Sharon – you need to read through Hebrews 8-10 with a good study Bible. The old covenant was made obsolete at the cross, this is well established biblical theology.
You FOOLS should heed Sharon’s words!
To be pleasing in God’s sight is to do his commands… to LOVE the FATHER! Period!
Your high falutin’ education has made you all arrogant… we are to be as children coming to the FATHER in humble repentance and he will write his TORAH on our hearts. Whatever that is, it will come from HIM, not a human being graduated and have received a diploma from seminary school!
We have ALL been taught something… the question is, what part is TRUTH (of God) and what part is a LIE (of Satan).
RE: The “You F___” usage by Susan B above
This is a curse or a hex. “We bind all the power of hexing to thresh godly correction/ conversation. In Jesus name.” CC.
2 Timothy 2:23-26
“But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.”
I’m all for you defending sound doctrine Cris. Just want to see you and everyone else do it with gentleness, patience and humility. I’m not saying you weren’t but I know it got quite nasty between you and Rob. He’s at fault in this too, I’m not just trying to pin this on you.
Pappi’s doctrines do concern me. I’m glad you are going after it. I’ll still be sending you the book in the mail. You’ll get it in a few days. Blessings.
Did the Jews sacrifice animals when they were in exile? No. Do the Jews sacrifice animals now? No. That verse doesn’t prohibit anyone from sacrificing animals. You had to be a Levite Priest and it only can be done in the temple in Jerusalem. Those are the instructions from YHWH. Levites are all dead now and the temple is not under control of Yeshuah.
Speedy – the new covenant makes all of that obsolete. The Lord’s supper is what we celebrate today.
That’s no true. You didn’t answer any of my questions. Did Jews sacrifice animals during the exile and do they do it now? They don’t and are not suppose to. We can’t do it for the same reason because it would disobedience to YHWH.
I’m going to provide scripture to prove my point.
1. Humans can’t decide on the location of where to sacrifice animals.
Deuteronomy 16:5-6 You must not sacrifice the Passover in any town the Lord your God gives you 6 except in the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name.
2. There’s only one altar on earth where sacrifices can be made and that’s in Jerusalem.
Exodus 20:24 24 “‘Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you.
3. That further proves what I’m saying.
Leviticus 17:3-6 3 Any Israelite who sacrifices an ox,[a] a lamb or a goat in the camp or outside of it 4 instead of bringing it to the entrance to the tent of meeting to present it as an offering to the Lord in front of the tabernacle of the Lord—that person shall be considered guilty of bloodshed; they have shed blood and must be cut off from their people. 5 This is so the Israelites will bring to the Lord the sacrifices they are now making in the open fields. They must bring them to the priest, that is, to the Lord, at the entrance to the tent of meeting and sacrifice them as fellowship offerings. 6 The priest is to splash the blood against the altar of the Lord at the entrance to the tent of meeting and burn the fat as an aroma pleasing to the Lord.”
4. You have to be Levite to offer sacrifices. The Lord took that temple away, so no one on earth can offer a sacrifice for this reason.
Hebrews 8:8 8 “But God found fault with the people and said “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.”
Again The Jews were not able to offer sacrifices when they were in Babylon.
Also the Bible says that we will be able to sacrifice animals again during the millennial rein.
Ez 40-48 Is 56:6-8 Zec 14:16 Jer 33:15-18
There is no going back with God. the law and the prophets are fulfilled in Christ.
We are in “the fullness of time” Gal4:4 next be the day of Judgment!
“Thou shalt have a doctrine of the trinity, and thou shalt ensure that all others abide by and draw nigh unto thine own doctrine of the trinity, and thou shalt vigorously go after and defame anyone who doth not draw nigh unto thine own self-invented doctrine of the trinity, and thou shalt ensure that believers are sharply divided from one another over thine doctrine of the trinity, for I love division and hostility over doctrines that I did not invent, saith the Lord.” Where does that appear in your Bible, Cris? Cris, I believe you are engaged in an approach to ministry which runs afoul of Titus 3:9.
Amen
It’s interesting Rick, whilst your humour is sort of funny … I want to know if you really think the other side of the coin comes into this ?? “What is the other side of the coin”? I hear you ask.
Glad you asked Rick.
Here it is: Two young 18 year olds show up at your door, wearing perfectly pressed shirts with their mountain bikes having travelled half way around the world – both from Utah – to tell you about the message of Jesus and maybe help you with an odd job or two and they commend you to entitle them as “Elder ___” and “Elder ___”.
And when pressed, they both claim Jesus is the Son of God – and the only way to God. How can two such nice young lads be wrong … and how nasty it would be to say so … right? Such clean, pressed, white shirts.
Put another way, if I paint a ball orange, hand it to you, you taste it and you tell me it tastes like a tennis ball, plastic and rubber … would you be running afoul of Titus 3:9 for telling me don’t give you toxic rubber for food again? I don’t buy bad, rotting fruit, why should I expect anyone else? That stuff doesn’t go on special … it goes to the rubbish dump.
Taking away from the headship of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and Scriptural representations, reducing their equality and ordering is the nuclear bomb of toxic bombs … Japan’s nuclear fallout is a recent example. Warning is this: “don’t play with bombs … it ruins the fruit.”
We all suffer from bad influences at times, I was speaking with a Jehovah’s Witness and ONLY at the end did he say Jesus is not God and there was no Hell !!?! I could have been a lot quicker to that distinction. So the other side of the coin are the explosions of Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses (Christadelphians as well) and their bold deceptions.
“Self invented doctrine of the trinity” is a slur on the Great Commission, the names of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit … an abdication of the authority of those names (particularly the Father and the Son) … and Presence of God (“I will be with you until the end of the Age”)…
… but that, Rick, is whether you, or Rob, really mean it. Even Peter the Apostle made these mistakes … and Paul may have mishandled in Antioch (perhaps I am willing to ask the question) … but what do you do if a leader undresses themselves in public ?
You can only protect someone so far. Everyone needs clothes, even leaders need them.
The Question that needs to be answered; Are christians under the Law or Under Grace?
Even if Jews still abide under the Law and keep the [sacrifices,Feasts ect] that does not make it acceptable to God, nor are they justified in any way by the works of the Law. For Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
That is why the Apostle Paul was so persecuted by the Jews, and was looked upon as a traitor of Judaism, as indeed was Christ.
The law has to do with works, Grace as to do with Faith Gal3:11
Insistence in mixing the two produces another gospel by a different spirit. Gal1:6 For the spirit of Judaism is not the Spirit of the Law of Christ. Gal6:2 Rom8:2 It cannot be, because the spirit of Judaism deny that Jesus came in the FleshChrist, It is antichrist! 1Jn4:3
You who mix the two mix [christ with antichrist]. or as Cris Putman previously stated You make Christ to be common with Baal.
You’re not making any sense brother. Faith without works is dead. A lawless faith having Christians will not please the lord. Answer me this, Why is the anti-christ referred to as the lawless one in the Bible? Why does Jesus say “I never knew you, you doers of lawlessness” to those who profess to serve him? What law is the Lord speaking about?
Speedy; Sin is lawlessness 1Jn3:4
Lawlessness equates to wickedness. The word is interchangeable
The lawless one is also called the man of Sin, the son of perdition.
I practice lawlessness (sin) when I walk in the flesh and not the Spirit Rom8:4
There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus Rom8:1 because they are free from the Law of sin and death
Rom10:4
We are to live by the Law of liberty James2:12
God’s law is the law of liberty brother. Isn’t lawlessness create slavery to sin?
James2:12 Goes perfectly with the following verse.
Ja 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
We will be judge by the law of liberty.
Ja 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. If the Law of God is called freedom, how can we also call it bondage?
Ps 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts. 47 And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.
Ga 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
That bondage is described here.
Ga 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
You didn’t provide any scripture to prove your man made ideas.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Amen!!!!!!
Please don’t try to redefine lawlessness to nullify the law.
I like this definition better.
1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
The anti-christ is called the lawless one, since he doesn’t obey the law of liberty. Please choose wisely and don’t be like the lawless one.
This article is misleading. They don’t sacrifice lambs. They kill them. They even said it themselves.
Don’t you find this odd, that christians are killing Lambs as memorials.
Nowhere do the Apostles instruct this to be done.
Jesus told us what to do as His memorial Lk22:19
This is an aspect of the law introduced into their worship practice.
What’s wrong with killing a lamb to eat it? I don’t get it???? People kill animals all the time to eat. You can’t eat a sacrifice, if you do, then it wouldn’t be a sacrifice, right? Are you telling me that the Apostles didn’t eat lamb at Passover?
1 Corinthians 5:8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Luke 22:15 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
Luke 22:7-20 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat it.” They said to him, “Where will you have us prepare it?” He said to them, “Behold, when you have entered the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him into the house that he enters and tell the master of the house, ‘The Teacher says to you, Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ …
John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing.
Luke 2:41-50 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom. And when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem.
This is not for worship but for a celebration. It’s like killing a turkey on thanksgiving. Please reader the following verse to see that’ it’s not a sacrifice.
Exodus 12:2 “This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year. 3 Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb[a] for his family, one for each household. 4 If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat. 5 The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. 6 Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight.”
You go right ahead my friend and practice the Law as you desire. As for me I’ll rest in the finished work of Christ.
God bless you.
Thank you, I will continue to do delight in the law of liberty. You’re lawlessness doesn’t effect me brother. It only will effect you in the end. I have nothing to do with you judgement.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23″And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS
John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands.
1 John 2:4 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
Jesus is so serious about us keeping his law, that he wants us to pray that we don’t’ flee from persecution on the Sabbath.
Matthew 24:20″But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21″For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.…
I’ll pray for yo brother. I know you feel the contradictions.
I listened to this whole audio between these two. I had finished right before this the debate between you, Cris, and “Pappy”. The first was very succinct and I found your points were perfectly placed. True that Pappy never answered the questions that you asked. So, to this audio. I found it very disturbing that this “Pappy” person has now found an ‘innocent’ who has fallen ‘hook, line and sinker’ for this ‘stuff’ Pappy is peddling. I saw countless mistakes within the audio. What was sad but humorous at the same time was saying there is no Trinity but speaking about what the Father does, what the Son does and how the Holy Spirit speaks to Rob Skibe. I recall thinking….”No, it isn’t THAT Trinity but it is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that I am talking about…it is another ‘one’.” It was almost laughable. I am currently working on my Masters Degree at Liberty Univ. and I am in the course, “Apologetics” right now. I had the course on ‘Church Fathers’ last sub semester so a lot of this was still ‘fresh’ in my mind from that course. Thank you for your work in Apologetics and as noted from some of the comments it is difficult for some to understand the difference in Apologetics and ‘arguing’ or not being edifying…when it is a completely different topic….Apologetics. I have saved this site and will come back from time to time to see what is going on here.
Sharon et al: I am a poor Bible student b ut I do my best. I just want to comment on your translation on Matt 5:17:
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill”.
” μὴ νομίσητε ὅτι ἦλθον καταλῦσαι τὸν νόμον ἢ τοὺς προφήτας οὐκ ἦλθον καταλῦσαι ἀλλὰηρῶ πληρόω (plēroō)
The translation you quote says “uphold” the law. That is NOT what the Greek rendering is for the ‘pler00’. There is no translation from Greek to English that says ‘UPHOLD’. Strong’s ID for that word is G4137. It renders the word and meaning as ‘complete’ or ‘fulfill’. the ‘uphold’ and ‘complete or fulfill’ do not carry the same meaning.
I do not have the eloquence to explain further but I believe I have grasped that Jesus is telling us that the law abides in Him. Furthermore, when the law says that these practices are to be continued ‘forever’, that is true but in the form of Jesus. Not that we have to continue it’s practice.
@Allen Cleirbaut: It would appear that you have gotten a part of what Jesus was saying. The law has been fulfilled in and through Jesus because He became the sacrificial “lamb” for all. If the ‘law’ you are referring to is OT then it would say that but as you stated it is true…in the form of Jesus. Great to hear back from you.
Would you all please tell me how the Spirit of the One who kept the Law is now in me as a believer, yet I should not expect Him to cause me to also want to keep the Law? It is laughable, and the only end result is that even keeping a law is tantamount to sin, so I better get out there and murder someone so that I am not attempting to keep the law!! (NOT)
Yeshua came to abolish the Oral Law and the man-added ordinances (Rabbi’s/Pope) that were making the actual law seem burdensome and actually causing them to break it. This is what happens when you add to or take away from the true Word, it renders it of no-effect. Rituals and check off lists are most often used to circumvent, or justify ignoring, the plain command and then the simple instruction from God now seems trivial!
His yoke is easy and His burden is light. The Torah (instruction or “law”) is our covenant agreement and brings us into relationship with Him. If you want to ‘live in His house you must follow his rules’, like most fathers would say! It creates our boundary of protection. The whole Bible is a legal document and following it, by faith, takes you out of Satan’s jurisdiction (since he is the current ruler of the world) and into God’s protection.
We are free TO follow the law by the Spirit, because without it you are a slave to sin! You are not ABLE to keep the law without the Spirit. All attempts to please God by following the law without the Spirit (for instance Judaism) are useless. But, it is the Spirit of the Law that we are to keep, not the letter!
The New (actually re-newed) Covenant is such because the Covenant is being renewed by a new Mediator. Nothing has changed. Faith and Spirit were always required. But now we are not condemned if we slip up or misunderstand while we are learning. Becoming a child of God, is becoming a child of Israel. We are adopted into the family, grafted into the tree. There is no Jew or Greek.
All ISRAEL will be saved!
Lisa,
“The One” presumably is anti Father-Son-Holy Spirit code … so right there at the beginning … is a anti Christ attack on Paul and the Gospels dealt quite with above, which set up fundamental disagreement. So read through what is already said, and consider it. It’s not about one person, but a lot of people pushing it on Facebook and elsewhere.
This deception is fundamentally anti Christ as denying the Father and Son (1 John) is the spirit which causes it.
AS IS claiming the Spirit of the Father, without acknowledging the Son, also known as the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
NO ONE DENIES obeying the 10 commandments or the Torah, or Deuteronomic Blessings are wise and godly, but enforcing Judaic custom, ritual and Judaizing Gentiles – i.e. asserting Hebrew language and form – is nothing short of witchcraft (Galations 3).
But if anyone has denied the nature of the Father-Son-Holy-Spirit they’ve already gone that far. Ja, Yeshua He Mashiach, Ruach Ha Kodesh … or not !!! It’s deceptive and its deadly. Jesus gave the Great Commission and that means all nations, all languages and all tribes. And THAT … right there … is the silver bullet to the vampire of Judaizing Gentiles.
Paul says it, Revelations confirms it and the G/ Commission announces it. Beyond that there is no safe ground for it.
Fine if you grew up Jewish (Romans: “first for the Jew”), with customs and rituals … but that is not what this is. This is the heavy load, not the “burden which is light” you speak of. This is about telling people who don’t know what is involved to stop listening to the Holy Spirit, become subservient to men to claim higher counsel in the Old Testament and controlling people’s lives.
“Boundary of protection” is a spiritual sounding statement which assumes simply doing the right thing externally is all that is required to be safe, but witchcraft – which is something we all have to face – is taking that which is new – and treating it like its old. New wine in an old wineskin is not from the Holy Spirit.
It’s from men, Lisa. Learning Hebrew for appearance’s sake is pure unadulterated religious crap. It’s not about bringing new believers in … it’s about pride, puffing yourself up.
If you haven’t read the material above, Judaizing Gentiles comes from the desire to enslave new believers, too young to know the difference.
And Jesus said those people require the millstone and the the deep end of the pool … we all get plenty of warnings Lisa …. sometimes all it takes is to back away from some of the people in our circle feeding us this horse crap.
Listening to the Holy Spirit requires a different part of our brain than simply taking orders from someone … but it’s not impossible as long as we are willing to be still long enough. CC.
It is not “Judaizing” to go back to the original writings and bypass the errors of the translators! Yes, most customs and rituals are from the Oral Law (Rabbi’s) – what Jesus opposed (as I stated above). This does not take away from the COMMANDS to Israel (all true believers) that are ‘forever’. (I dare you to do a word search on for ever/forever). (FYI: The NT was not originally written in Greek either).
Also, it is not denying the Father, Son or Spirit to say that they are ‘one/echad’. The doctrine of the Trinity is a man-made concept. No one knows how many dimensions or ways YHWH manifests himself, so to say He is ‘Triune’ when the Scripture does not teach such is adding to the Word.
The ‘boundary of protection’ was a legal statement regarding jurisdiction in the same vein as it was used in context.
It is the fact that I AM listening to the Holy Spirit that I have come to leave “Churchianity” and am following Torah. Learning my true roots and the truth of the covenant Yeshua died to renew for me (House of Israel) has strengthened my faith and attuned my ears to hear.
You may want to re-read your Scriptures setting aside all the ‘doctrine’ you have been indoctrinated to come to it with. The Truth may surprise you and it will definitely set you free!
I am not here to defend Pappy in anyway. Just want to clear up what so many have been deceived about. It saddens me to see how deep the infection is. That said, you really need to read Pappy’s book! I pray that you will.
To say you have left “churchianity” … embraced Torah … is to say you have embraced “hyper churchianity”
There is nothing moderate about judaizing.
Exalting yourself … and debasing the plain reading of Scripture is the ONLY infection or indoctrination you need to be concerned about.
I couldn’t care whether the word Trinity was ever used again … the Great Commission enforces God’s self revelation of Father, Son and Holy Spirit and it’s more authorised than Pappy, Skiba or any “Judaizer” trying to evangelise legal custom on new converts … illegally.
Funny that … isn’t it? Applying the law outside the law. Grace makes the law illegal – read Paul first … then second guess.
But you have set Paul aside, one way or another.
Now it is a question of being inside the Spirit and not using illegal Torah-tactics to shame the children Jesus says … “do not hinder”.
Because when the Temple curtain was ripped … so were the obligations so many Jews were reticent to set aside for grace. Peter certainly wouldn’t do it willingly … but this is not what this is.
Peter had a problem, and many do today … despite the reality of freedom, liberty and deliverance.
Instead, what you threaten Lisa … is a world of reproach. No thanks … and IF you haven’t dumped Galations … you’ll know that’s polite.
You are not thinking of anyone else Lisa, it makes the all evangelism stink like a sewer and gives every unbeliever all the excuses in the world to reject everything in the Bible and keep God out of their lives.
Unbelievers need to know the presence of God … the guidance and WISDOM comes after.
Churchianty ? Give me a break. I’m not obsessed with words … and the second you use them to play games … is the second you are promoting cult tactics, cult behaviour and every white washed wall with dead mens bones.
Stay alive, stay free and stay away from this horse crap. You need some decent friends. HBC
All Israel will be saved?
Oral law is non sense because it is man made but he covenant with God is true and this are the Commandments as well.We cannot leave the 10 Commandments live behind us.If we love God. Jesus said if you keep the Commandments then you are my friend. Have a nice day sister.
Please READ my comments correctly. As I said, Yeshua came to ABOLISH the Oral Law and man made ordinances!
And, yes, all ISRAEL will be saved. You must have a correct understanding of who Israel is. She is not the current land mass in the middle east and she is not the ‘Israeli’ people. The children of (spiritual) Israel are the children of God; The House of Israel and the House of Judah. They have been separated for a time, blinded for a time, but that is the mystery, that God will bring them back together as one new man! Grafted into the olive tree!
Please do a study on it for yourself. I cannot explain it all here. (Identity Crises by Jim Staley is a good teaching on this.)
Romans 11:25-26
“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles (ethnos/nations) be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved” AMEN!!
Genesis 1:2 The Earth has no form and was void, darkness was over the deep and the spirit of God hovered over the water? What was hovering over the water? The spirit of God, what did Enoch called God? The Lord of the Spirits. No one can have a spirit if not received from God. So who is God? The Spirit, so if God is the Spirit where is the Holy Spirit? another God the twin of God?God is the Father and the Holy spirit visible in every Human, Animal and Plant tree tone. The DNA’s are talking and saying God is here. For even the stones will witness against the sinners or the saints on judgement day.Bishop Ignatius of Antioch indeed was a special kind.He did not need the conscience of the elders in Jerusalem, he did not love the Jews or Nazarene who follow the truth of the Lord, the torah and the truth of Joshua. He did not need there Holy Spirit he decided we have the Holy Spirit so we can decide our self, lets think what kind of Spirit he really had? He alienated the Church from Israel he separates, this is the spirit of rebellion the spirit of Lucifer, no other brothers. He alienated not only the brothers there he alienated the Church from God and so did Constantin a natural alianate trough melding Pagan worship together with worship of Yahweh, in this way Nimrod, Horus and Isiris were there again, the Baals in the worship with Yahweh did you not see that brother all the signs until now are there, Christmas, Easter, +++. You cannot serve 2 masters right. Constantin was a beast a morderer a real Christian, whit such a guy the Bishops unite wow the Jews would never.How truthful could this Bishops be no one was willing to die for the truth, and in this scheme we shall believe, Man wake up.His Bishop was not a pope he was just a handy man for Constantine. All of them unworthy all, licking the Ass of Constantine and selling the truth of God. Satan controlled every bit of it. Where are the true translations? if there are no true one then we have to go to the Old-Testament because there cant be a double truth Gods words are yesterday or today or tomorrow the same. As there were never mention a Holy Trinity in the Torah there was no need for it but at least no importance for it. If God says listen to me now Israel then we know it is important so he never did say so if it would be he would have said it again and again, all they want is a mystery cloudy and mysterious no one can understand only the debaters among. What did God say about them? you know i guess. I just ask God please let me see Yahweh that i can live in your truth no mystery simple, and knowing that he answers, may The God of Spirit the God of Enoch and Abraham bless you brother.
I have only recently discovered the Hebrew Roots Movement after becoming friends with Rob Skiba on Facebook. One thing I noticed both on his Facebook page, and also here in the comments, is that those who are a part of the movement tend to become hostile, arrogant and self-righteous regarding their beliefs. There is a distinct “we are right and the rest of you are wrong and going to hell for it” attitude (reminds me of certain religious leaders that Jesus continually rebuked!) Just today I was reading a comment on Mr Skiba’s Facebook page where one person was saying that the Apostle Paul was an heretic, and was the person Jude was referring to in Jude 1:4. Thankfully Skiba corrected this person, but it appears that more and more of the HRM adherents are teaching the same thing. We need to be aware of how insidious and dangerous this movement is. Well done for highlighting their errors
Chris, I just spent only $35 for a boatload of your books. Thanks for the deal!
This topic: Do you have the time to read 12 pages from this book? http://ffoz.com/what-about-the-sacrifices-book.html
D. Thomas Lancaster is a great researcher and author like you. On pages 33-43 and 77-80, you will find some of the best exegesis on why the sacrifices are olam (eternal). That’s why Yeshua was slain before the foundation of the earth. In 15 minutes you will realize why Systematic Theology breaks down during the late-tribulation period and the Messianic Age. You don’t have to read the whole book. I will even buy the book and ship it to you.
If you promised to read Lancaster’s other book “Galatians,” I’d buy that for you too.
If your new book “The Supernatural Worldview” is successful, all your Calvinist friends will reject you anyway, so why so embrace your latent tzadick tendencies?
Deal? Shalom!
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Well Let me add something here. The title of JEHOVAH IS NEVER APPLIED TO ANY OTHER CREATURE BUT THE LORD HIMSELF. Now look at prophecy about John the Baptist ..Isaiah 40:3 and Matt 3:3 . Who is Peter talking about in ! Peter 2:7,8 but what Isaiah 7:13,14. Well Lets CONTINUE…. Zech. 12:1 talks about who? Then vs 10 says “they should look upon ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED….. John 19:41 tells us the one is Christ. Lets keep comparing Isaiah 6:5 and John 12:41. Now lets do the Spirit of the Lord. Gen 6:3 and I Peter 3:20. 2 Sam 23:2 and 23:3. Now lets use the passage Papy used Deut. 6:4 “Hear O Israel, Jehovah, our Elohim, one Jehovah! I beleive this is kind ofa oracular effatum which is an authoritative principal to the Israelites. Had it been intended to assert such unity in the Divine nature, as is absolutely solitary, and exclusive of every modification of plurality, would not the expression of necessity have been Hear, O Israel, Jehovah, our Elohim, one Eloah? But the words stand as they appear which is a real plurity intimated in the form Elohim, Jehovah is one.
Hey Chris.. I was listening another one of Rob’s disciples before I knew he was influenced by Rob. His name is Douglas Hamp. Are you familiar with him? And I would love you debate him.
I agree that Valentine’s Day, Christmas and Easter seem very occultic/satanic regardless of what Luther decided to do with regard to his own life. Is it possible that the points Putnam makes are not indicative of heresy but rather a difference of opinion that does not condemn. I know that Cris is interested in the whole realm of debate and honing skills in this regard. Why not save the difference of opinion for the likes of Richard Dawkins and others of this ilk? I’m pretty sure that it is not our job to send our brethren to hell.
Holy cow, is this debate still going on? I see it began almost three years ago. My curiosity is roused, nonetheless, as I wonder if there ever was a reconciliation of spirits. Most likely the original cult leader has not radically changed, that I make as an educated guess because it is most difficult for cult and cultic leaders to change their beliefs. However, I do pray retrospectively that by now Skiba has repented of his heresy on the trinity. As much of a Berean as I thought myself, I too fell into listening to the likes of Skiba about a year ago, mainly due to the fact my interest in eschatology in relation to Gen 6 was escalating. Now he is an ardent flat-earther——I know that much. Once this came to my attention I immediately ceased listening to his videos and following his ministry.
Cris, I just wanted to express my respect and gratitude toward you for the solid stance you had taken. I do hope that by now Skiba has returned to orthodoxy, meaning reverting back to Trinitarianism.
Just an off the trail question, is there a particular Bible version you prefer using? Thanks you.