Roman Catholic gay rights groups hail the paper titled Relatio as a breakthrough, because it says:
50. Homosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community: are we capable of welcoming these people, guaranteeing to them a fraternal space in our communities? Often they wish to encounter a Church that offers them a welcoming home. Are our communities capable of providing that, accepting and valuing their sexual orientation, without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony? source
While point 50 is being cited as a revolutionary step forward for Rome, it amounts to babbling incoherent nonsense. Here is the implied argument: 1) Gays have talents and gifts to offer the church; 2) Gays wish the church to welcome them; 3) Therefore, we should guarantee them space in our communities.
Reasoning carefully is important and this line of reason fails. Formally, it is called a non-sequitur (does not follow). Why? It is easy to demonstrated.
All groups of people have gifts but not all groups are consistent with Christianity. Extreme examples make this obvious. For example, predatory pedophile priests like Fr. Robert Brennan have gifts too but the nature of such sin requires the church to break fellowship, correct? I only use an extreme example to prove that gifting alone is not the basis for acceptance. Even satan worshippers have talents but we do not want to worship with them. It does not follow that the giftedness of homosexuals (or anyone) demands the church to “make space” for them (whatever that means). Thus, the logic fails.
The New Testament teaches:
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Co 6:9-10)
A Christian cannot “accept and value their sexual orientation” because it is sinful (1 Cor 6:9). This documents reveals that Rome does not understand the Gospel. One joins the true church by acknowledging ones sinfulness and need of the Savior’s redeeming blood. If a homosexual believes the Gospel (1 Cor 15:3-5) acknowledges that such activity is sinful, struggles and resists the proclivity then they are Christian. If they refuse to acknowledge that it is a sin, freely indulge it and ask the church to compromise, then they are in open rebellion no matter what gifts and talents they might offer.
About Cris Putnam
“One joins the true church by acknowledging ones sinfulness and need of the Savior’s redeeming blood. If a homosexual believes the Gospel (1 Cor 15:3-5Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)) acknowledges that such activity is sinful, struggles and resists the proclivity then they are Christian. If they refuse to acknowledge that it is a sin, freely indulge it and ask the church to compromise, then they are in open rebellion no matter what gifts and talents they might offer.” ~AMEN!
i am a retired psychiatrist and have helped some of these people but rarely. The condition is not just sin but biochemically related dz effects that include the spiritual , physical and mental which are not literally separate things but part of a whole only our creator understands. In ISAIAH ( KJV ) 45:7 God says he created evil and the only way this makes sense to me is that everything is created for God to glorify himself. We as sentient creatures are chosen , if Revelation is correct , at the original time of the creation of man. You were chosen then or not. A hard thing for some to grasp is that JEHOVA is omniscient and knows the future. There is only one real future if the future is know able and ergo it’s fixed. So I say the church might help but that’s not my pay grade and I think the reality is that few gays are intellectually honest enough to grasp the truth of the bible and like many Jews their eyes and ears are defective. I cannot say what God will do to or for these sick people but He is a consuming fire and is not mocked. I pray , likely with foolishness and without sagacity , that JEHOVA will have mercy on them as I really believe most of them were born with their proclivity. Does JEHOVA have the right to punish whom He will.? Yes. But God is also love and merciful and can do things we don’t understand to judge with levels of discernment as do some of our earthly courts. Can JEHOVA make the punishment fit the crime ? I say yes but I now pray to my savior I have not hurt people unnecessarily and with any subliminal malice. MIKE BRIDGES MD
Mr Bridges; I work in disability and I can understand what you say… God knows all from the beginning in accord with His foreknowledge.. but nowhere does the Word imply that His foreknowledge predestines people to condemnation..nor does the Word Imply that physical defects are His doing.. The problem is SIN… “All have sinned”
If God created evil it was certainly was not from the beginning.. For the Word says that all was Good even Lucifer the covering cherub of Eden.. It would be better said in accord with the Word of God that He brings/permits evil to overcome/punish the wicked.
Throughout scripture (the accountability of men is taught in conjunction with judgment)..
The Blood of the New Covenant is not a ‘Limited atonement’ for a chosen few
The Apostle Paul said: “For even though they knew God, they did not honour Him as God” Rom1:21…
As a result, God “gave them over in the Lust of their hearts to impurity” Rom1:24..
So; we understand that the issue is the ‘lust of the heart’ Homosexuals like any sinner can come to repentance and if as you say that it is a medical condition Then the Grace of God is far greater…
Dr Bridges and jaz
You are both, I feel, very close in what you are stating. There are a few things we all tend to forget, the main one being that the ONE TRUE GOD, the Creator of all things, isn’t really a God of love or understanding, etc., but a JUST GOD; therefore, it becomes inclusive of all others, such as we are told ‘. . . as a father loveth his children. . .’ we are punished per the ‘crime’ (sin), and, also forgiven if in earnest.
It has been well documented that spirituality is found to affect our very being (which would be our DNA) and if a person of a homosexual nature honestly gives their life over to Christ, our Lord and Saviour, then that persons very being is changed (even if they are born that way), and will no longer have a strong desire to commit the sins of the flesh. That doesn’t mean the ole devil won’t come along and temp that person (or any of us) again, but the original sinful nature of the ungodly, beastly carnal lust the individual had will be diminished, thus more easily fended off.
And, yes, GOD did create evil, in that being the Creator of all things, he created Lucifer and the fallen angels, though they were created without the evil, GOD did give them ‘choice’ which they took and turned on GOD, just as man did. Therefore, with Lucifer’s fall evil came into being and GOD knew that it would come out of and from HIS creation.
That is not saying as the ‘ying-yang’ theory that good and evil are balanced – they are not, for GOD is ‘good’ and above all, thus good (GOD) shall ultimately triumph when HE says “enough.”
If it wasn’t for the ‘grace’ of GOD, then HE would literally just annihilate us all, or have condemned us all to hell, leaving only GOD and the remaining angelic beings.
If the ‘church’ or even ‘churches’ were not so interested in being so worldly, then the ‘fear’ of GOD would still be proclaimed in our churches as it was up until about 50 years ago when everyone had to become so politically correct – one of the leading downfalls of these ‘Christian’ states. (think this could be batted around for a long time)
I believe Homosexuals are born that way in like manner to how all of us are born in sin…it is what it is,
I think we all need to treat each other like human beings, as what hurts one another in society like nothing else out there is being rude to each other and not expressing love for each other.
God, essentially the Pre-Incarnate Christ, wrote down the 10 Commandments, but seemingly ”learned” something when he was down here on Earth with us because actually added a NEW 11th Commandment for us to love one another,
which begs the question if one thinks even our creator cannot ”learn”, why didn’t he just write down 11 Commandments from the git go, rather that waiting to come down to see what being human was REALLY like to add the 11th one?? Crickets from our Lord on Homosexuality BTW, it’s always a huge issue Christians focus on Soooooo Much, like too much, WAY too much, when we don’t focus on the 11th Commandment instead, and focus on Jesus being totally silent on Earth on Homosexuality….don’t get me wrong, it’s a sin, but they didn’t ASK fr it, in like manner we didn’t ASK to be born in Sin either.
You are fully entitled to your own beliefs but they don’t concur with Truth.
According to Romans 1, God gave some people up unto vile affections, clearly as a form of punishment.
Nowhere does it state that fetuses, infants or toddlers can be sexual beings.
It is not loving towards your fellow man, not to warn him for the consequences of his sins. It is not rude to stimulate sinners to refrain from their immoral behaviour.
The commandment to love one another (Mat.22) is not a new additional eleventh commandment but is a summary of the second stone table.
Vic, we have to focus on and cannot ignore the sin of homosexuality since it is rampant nowadays and is wrecking marriages, families, church communities and legal systems in ever more countries.
The RC Church is on a dangerous slope trying to accomodate the sodomites for fear of the multitudes and public opinion.
Philip, “The RC Church is on a dangerous slope trying to accomodate the sodomites for fear of the multitudes and public opinion” — that is the part I do not understand.
What has happened to morality? What has happened to the rule of the majority?
The ‘sodomites’ are actually a small number, yet the majority has bowed to them in the name of ‘political correctness’ making it appear that there are multitudes backing them.
Of course, it is just my humble opinion, but it appears that the minorities have been uplifted by ‘big money’, and the actual majority is afraid to speak out/stand up for fear of reprisal from the ‘money’ backers who pay the big bucks to silence anyone who stands for truth. Due to this fear it has made many believe that there is something to this political correctness, along with fear from our pulpits to speak out, that many have begun backing the minorities giving support they never had or otherwise would have garnished.
Also, if one actually delves into history, we find that the ‘ rc church’ has always taken on parts of ‘pagan’ and other beliefs in order to obtain more followers, and it has always pulled through. Always ‘dragging’ more people into it by just going with the flow, threats and destruction, which helped cause the Protestant Revolution/Reformation or whatever you wish to call it.
Remember, in the book of Revelations we find the plead “. . . come out of her my people. . .” It is there for a reason — again, we have to look at history, real history, and true biblical history, not the made up stuff they shove into our young people’s heads today.
Hope i made sense or said it right.
You could be right, HR, that big money initiated the process (but why?). I still haven’t figured it out completely, how a moral code (sodomy is bad), that existed for thousands of years, could be flipped over in a couple of decades. There must be more to it than just money. I live in Europe, and it is my understanding that, for instance, islam is a factor too. By many perceived as a primitive and barbaric religion it became necessary to distance oneself from muslims and act as liberal as possible towards religious laws.
As for the RC’s to incorporate paganism for gain of members I think I have to disagree concerning sexual rules. Throughout history there have been many disobedient clergy, but sexual rules have been upheld. Sodomy, adultery, prostitution has always been bad according to RC dogma.
At least since the reformation the RCC has not gone with the flow. Many of my ancestors had to go to great lengths to perform their religious duties under protest rule. Over 200 years the RC’s were persecuted in quite a few European countries. The plead to come out of her is aimed at all false churches. And there are many much worse than the RCC.
UPDATE:
As it turns out, the conservatives in the synod held sway and approved a final report that rejected much of the language in “Relatio,” which was only an initial report, not the final document.
The report below comes from Associated Press:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/10/18/synod-did-not-overhaul-catholic-teachings-on-sex-and-marriage-participants-say/